To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Things for the new, aspiring player to understand

Because of ESPN, Rounders, hearing stories of professional players, etc, the gap between fantasy and reality for new, aspiring poker players just seems to grow.

I’ve spent enough time now with newer players to notice some patterns to make some observations that may be helpful to the thought process.

A reading of the psychology of poker is a good thing. However, in a nutshell, people play for different reasons. Among these are: money, competition, a challenge, entertainment. For most people making it to this forum, the reasons for playing are probably a mix of these with the heaviest ingredients being money and competition.

It’s common for people to come to this game with many delusions. I’m not going to take the time to begin making an incomplete list, but here I can give the cure for almost all of them.

1. You won’t get rich quick.
2. You’re not half as good as you think you are (severely understated).
3. To consistently make any money worth talking about, it takes more work than you’ve imagined (severely understated).
4. To consistently make any money worth talking about, it takes longer than you’ve imagined (severely understated).

For most, a combination of the following things will take place:

They will have completed playing 5,000 to 10,000 hands and think they’ve accomplished something. Sticking with the “piss in the bucket” analogy, when speaking of limit holdem, this number of hands is a few molecules of urine on the floor of the Sahara Desert.

In these few particles of salty waste, a mix of the following results and deductions will have taken place with possible varying degrees…all of which are about equally likely for any person.

Results:

1. They’ve made a ton of money relative to the limit played.
2. They’ve broke even.
3. They lost a ton of money relative to the limit played.

Deductions (not necessarily correlating with the same numbered result):

1. I’m a highly skilled player.
2. This game is all luck.
3. These players suck so bad, I can’t make any money. No one respects my raises.

The new, aspiring player will have to go through most of the following stages:

1. They suck, but don’t know they do.
2. They realize and expose ignorance.
3. They start to learn some things.
4. They start to misapply things they learn.
5. They start to know some stuff they don’t know and repeat steps 3 and 4.
6. They start to know they know some things and recognize what others don’t know.
7. They start to think they’re good, and rinse and repeat.

Advice:

Luckily for those just starting this game, they’re not relying on the game for income. So, I offer this advice.

If you’re not dedicated to hard work and study, just accept that you’ll lose money and if you persist in playing, play for entertainment value. You’ll save yourself a lot of grief.

PLAY LESS!

When you’re just starting, it doesn’t make sense for most players to be playing a ton of hands. If you’re not studying at least twice as much as you’re playing, you’re doing yourself a HUGE disservice. Read and reread the books everyone here talks about, post hands, discuss hands, do math, think about hands away from the table, etc. There are plenty of things that go on in a 100 hands or so, that will give you something to think about, post and learn from.

When I started, I was reading about 3 hours a day, averaging about 30 posts a day and playing about 2 hours a day. It was about 3 months of this before I felt like I was a small winning player in the party poker 2/4 game, and I’m not a slow learner.

STOP MULTITABLING!

Most likely, you’re not even thinking about half the things you should be thinking about even if you’re playing only one table. Playing four and more tables when you don’t need to is only going to stunt your growth. Plenty of things generally happen in a hundred or two hundred hands that you'll have plenty to think and post about.

UNDERSTAND THE GAME

If the best limit holdem player in the world sat down with 9 people who just learned how to play, the expert would think nothing of losing money for huge stretches of hands. When we speak of huge stretches, we’re not talking about hundreds of hands…that number of hands is salty waste. This thread may help you start to understand the game a bit.

It’s a minute to learn and a lifetime to master.

Good Luck,

QT

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Good stuff, man. It's been a while. You should drop by more often.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

This very nice post goes well with your other very nice post which has tons of excellent links buried in it that will take a long time to read through.

I really want to emphasize this paragraph (my empahses added):

[ QUOTE ]
When you’re just starting, it doesn’t make sense for most players to be playing a ton of hands. If you’re not studying at least twice as much as you’re playing, you’re doing yourself a HUGE disservice. Read and reread the books everyone here talks about, post hands, discuss hands, do math, think about hands away from the table, etc. There are plenty of things that go on in a 100 hands or so, that will give you something to think about, post and learn from.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's especially solid advice in light of this recent post (which was a little confusing - most people answered the question in the subject and not the question asked in the poll).

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

I think it's quite commendable that you take the time to give back. Good work man.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

this was amazing...

i think on about my 3rd round of the rinse and repeat stage. just starting to realise i suck again [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Great post dude.
I'm just starting to realize what others don't know which probably means I'm due for a rinse and repeat. Wonderful. Can I go on my downswing now?

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Thanks QTip. very much appreciate the time you took to think/write this up.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Thank you for this post. I started playing online poker about 2 years ago, I played off and on over the course of a year but haven't played much in the last year and I've taken poker up again recently, I now have time to read and study.

What hasn't hit me yet, and I know it's out there, is the feeling I'm moving up to the next level, that I can begin to understand the reasoning for my actions while I play.

I've been good at many strategy games I've played, poker is so different because of the variables and unknowns.

In high school I went from not knowing how to play chess to "this close" to state champion in less than 15 months. Mostly because school was easy for me and I had lots of time to study my chess books. Night after night I would repeatedly go through my books and set up the board in front of me and play out the scenarios in the book. I think the books helped me see board positions and at the state tournament I saw mate in 6 with only 3 or 4 pieces gone from the board. I was proud of myself - still am can you tell? haha

I'm going to have to patiently wait over the next several hundred thousand hands for the feeling to hit me that I'm not just a newbie anymore and I'm actually starting to "get" what I'm reading and apply it with my own game.

I know it wont' be easy and I'll be back to read your post time and again, thank you very much.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

nice post

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

My boss has heard my tales of online limit "fun" and see's how involved I am in it and he wants me to help him start learning to play online limit HE so he can make a little extra money. This will go in my list of things he needs to look at before he even gets an account on any site.

Thanks QTip

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
This very nice post goes well with your other very nice post which has tons of excellent links buried in it that will take a long time to read through.

I really want to emphasize this paragraph (my empahses added):

[ QUOTE ]
When you’re just starting, it doesn’t make sense for most players to be playing a ton of hands. If you’re not studying at least twice as much as you’re playing, you’re doing yourself a HUGE disservice. Read and reread the books everyone here talks about, post hands, discuss hands, do math, think about hands away from the table, etc. There are plenty of things that go on in a 100 hands or so, that will give you something to think about, post and learn from.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's especially solid advice in light of this recent post (which was a little confusing - most people answered the question in the subject and not the question asked in the poll).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bump plus some instructions. A lot of the links don't work right now (probably due to the recent upgrade). You can still find the links by changing the "forumserver" to "archiveserver" in the URL.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

I plan to quote this page often when somebody on a hot streak, thinking they're god's gift to poker, starts posting about how his radical style that amazingly nobody's found yet is the most profitable.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

This post needs to go into the micro limit FAQ. Need to go into the beginners forum too. Thanks QTIP.

I'd add: No one wants to hear a bad beat story. If you play long enough they happend all the time. Don't abuse another player because he got lucky.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Excellent post. Insta-favorite.

I'm current in the level where I know enough to know how many mistakes I'm making all the time. It's very depressing, except that I also see how many mistakes my opponents are making. I'm hoping that all this 2+2 wisdom will become second nature someday, and I'll no longer wuss out on value bets all the time. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

In any case, I really respect what the pros do every day.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]

When I started, I was reading about 3 hours a day, averaging about 30 posts a day and playing about 2 hours a day. It was about 3 months of this before I felt like I was a small winning player in the party poker 2/4 game, and I’m not a slow learner.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you average 30 posts a day??? i've barely gotten my first 30 and people are already telling me to post less...

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When I started, I was reading about 3 hours a day, averaging about 30 posts a day and playing about 2 hours a day. It was about 3 months of this before I felt like I was a small winning player in the party poker 2/4 game, and I’m not a slow learner.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you average 30 posts a day??? i've barely gotten my first 30 and people are already telling me to post less...

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have been more clear. When I said "posts", I meant mostly replying to posts and to other's responses. And, of course, the number of posts wasn't the important thing, but rather the nature of the posts. In saying this, I have no idea of what your 30 posts consist or why people would tell you to post less....just clarifying.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bump plus some instructions. A lot of the links don't work right now (probably due to the recent upgrade). You can still find the links by changing the "forumserver" to "archiveserver" in the URL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Aaron. I wonder if that is a permanent change. If so, that sucks.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When I started, I was reading about 3 hours a day, averaging about 30 posts a day and playing about 2 hours a day. It was about 3 months of this before I felt like I was a small winning player in the party poker 2/4 game, and I’m not a slow learner.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you average 30 posts a day??? i've barely gotten my first 30 and people are already telling me to post less...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't telling you to post less. I was telling you to REPLY more, rather than starting new threads.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

When I first started learning golf, I used to think, "If I can just hit the ball farther, the game would be so much easier." "If I could just hit the ball straighter, the game would be easier." As the years went by, my length, and accuracy improved. And not once have I thought the game of golf has become easier. In fact, I sometimes feel I have moved backwards. Stupid game. A great example is how long it took me to realize that I would be better served by hitting the ball to ~ 135 yards from the green, rather than just trying to get as close as possible. My most accurate clubs were the 7 & 8 iron. Whenever I get within 90 yards, I was lost. But hey, it was a helluva drive!

The humorous part of the game of golf, for me, is that I got so good at playing out of the rough, that by the time that I was more consistently in the fairway, my game worsened. For me, I was a solid ball striker out of the rough. I was unusually accurate, and always seemed to know how to make something out of little. Anyhow, as I began to play more out of the fairway, I was out of my element, and my golf game went backwards. So then there was this stupid short game I now needed to learn. And have I told you yet what a bitch this game is? By far this is the most, or second most difficult part of the game. Hazards, deep grass, partial swings, clubs with different lofts. So many obstacles, so many tools. I sometimes wished I was still back 150 yards away in the rough, cos I knew how to play that game.

Anyhow, to me, poker is a lot like golf. The more I play, the more difficult the game has become. The drive reminds me a lot of preflop decisions. The short game is like playing postflop, and putting is like playing the river.

I was chatting with someone today, and we were talking about how many Sit-N-Gos we've played this year. I estimate I've played about 10,000. If you figure the average SNG is 70-100 hands, that's ....well a boatload of hands. And I still feel I have a lot to learn.

So, to the new, aspiring player ...hack away!

Scuba
Who has since quit golf, and who has appreciated the time spent with Qtip so far.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

That was one of the best analogies about the game of poker I have seen. Golf and poker are the two toughest games I have come across, maybe why I love both of them.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Need to go into the beginners forum too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't even aware of the exist of a beginner's forum. Perhaps I should read the links at the left at some point in my 2+2 life! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Yeah, that probably would have been the best place for it.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Post a thread over there with a link to this one. We appreciate you more over here, anyway.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

I remember a post a while back that someone mentioned you should be post 3 (I think) responces for every one thread you start. Was that Grunchcan? I can't remember at the moment.

For example: I rarely start new threads. That really underlies how awesome I am. Behold the awesome power of Gregatron!

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
That was one of the best analogies about the game of poker I have seen. Golf and poker are the two toughest games I have come across, maybe why I love both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When I started, I was reading about 3 hours a day, averaging about 30 posts a day and playing about 2 hours a day. It was about 3 months of this before I felt like I was a small winning player in the party poker 2/4 game, and I’m not a slow learner.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you average 30 posts a day??? i've barely gotten my first 30 and people are already telling me to post less...

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I was one of the ones who called you out on this, let me copy what I posted in the other thread:

[ QUOTE ]
You should really start fewer posts and start responding to other posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

The benefit of this forum is not having people tell you how you should have played such and such a hand. Rather, it is that your thinking patterns become exposed as you try to give other people advice, and then those thought patterns can be corrected. It's the whole give-a-man-a-fish thing.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
STOP MULTITABLING!

Most likely, you’re not even thinking about half the things you should be thinking about even if you’re playing only one table. Playing four and more tables when you don’t need to is only going to stunt your growth. Plenty of things generally happen in a hundred or two hundred hands that you'll have plenty to think and post about.


[/ QUOTE ]

its been a while since you were down here posting a lot, but I swear you were a 8tabler, and still are playing a limit lower than your skill level

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Excellent post. Thank you for writing this.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
STOP MULTITABLING!

Most likely, you’re not even thinking about half the things you should be thinking about even if you’re playing only one table. Playing four and more tables when you don’t need to is only going to stunt your growth. Plenty of things generally happen in a hundred or two hundred hands that you'll have plenty to think and post about.


[/ QUOTE ]

its been a while since you were down here posting a lot, but I swear you were a 8tabler, and still are playing a limit lower than your skill level

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was an 8 tabler then, and that has never changed. To answer the following question, I just started 4 tabling 15/30, so I'm trying to work it out. However, I had my reasons for being at small stakes for so long.

I was in a diferent position though than a lot of people starting out. Mostly because of the fact that I needed the bonus whoring money, and that was the way to clear it the fastest. However, I tried as much as possible (and still make sure I get in at least a few hours a week) to single table. When I do this, I make sure it's undistracted time, no music, surfing, etc. and just focus on my opponents and playing the best I can. I keep a tablet handy, to write down thoughts and hands to review later.

I'm convinced I would have grown more quickly had I been in the position to play a single table more frequently...2 at the max.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

QTip,

This may be one of the most important posts that I've read here. After playing about 35,000 hands I've really started to think that putting the hours in and getting "experience" is what I needed to do. The past month I would berate myself for not playing enough hours, or playing the MLL games (which although I new wasn't a waste of time, don't contribute any $$$ directly). Your post made me realize something very elementary. I don't need the money. However, if I want to be a serious player, I do need the education. I've been trying to play the tables like it's a job and to some extent I think that's good to get an idea of what the "pro" life would be like, but as far as learning goes it's not helping me much.

In many of the books they talk about the value of "experience" in HE. However, I'm realizing that 2000 hands of multitabling/surfing 2+2 doesn't necessarily constitute "experience". To be honest, I kind of looked down on guys that had a ton of posts and not very many hands because I thought if they just dedicated half there time to playing instead of posting they'd be that much better off. Well, I did dedicate that much more time to playing and I'm not that much better off. Yes I have read the books alot but I now know not enough. I have a ton of favorite posts that I "just haven't gotten around to". In my October goals, all the reading goals are down the toilet, but my hands played goal isn't that far off. I'm starting to think that my priorities are askew.

In short, thanks for waking me up.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Link this in the FAQ. Good stuff.

FAQ
 

Linked at http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Beginner ; the OP and everyone else is certainly invited to edit that FAQ at will (as long as you don't hijack other people's prose without permission, of course).

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
My boss has heard my tales of online limit "fun" and see's how involved I am in it and he wants me to help him start learning to play online limit HE so he can make a little extra money. This will go in my list of things he needs to look at before he even gets an account on any site.

Thanks QTip

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but this seems like a bad idea.

And to the OP, great post. I'll show my roommates who are just starting to play.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Nice Post.

I recognize all the things you mentioned, especially phase 1:
1. They suck, but don’t know they do.

I thought I was a good player but I was one of the worst. After that I took a break and started reading and studying. I think I am in phase 3-5 now and I realise this is just the beginning.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum.

Its too bad most people will completely ignore 99% of the advice offered in it.
Just look at this thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

It you actually read some of the stories you will realize the majority of the them played way above their bankrolls at limits they probably werent ready for.

Simply put its not cool for example,to play 1 table 1/2 for 20k hands, when everybody else that was posting in micros just 3 months ago is 8 tabling 5/10 6 max.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Great Post.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Well said, QTip.
As a noob, I have found it frustrating to lurk here and encounter so few truly realistic bits of advice.
Much appreciated.

Uncle Wiggly

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

This is my first post. Been reading the micro-limit forums daily for the past two months but never posted. I have been playing online poker for about the last six months. Anyway, I have refrained from posting because I feel that my time is better spent reading what others who have played this game much longer than myself have to say. Regularly I read hand postings and the actions that I would have taken are in the minority of responders to say the least. I guess my question is this, how long should you just sit back and learn before you start actively participating? I know that there is no magic day or number of posts read, but there has to be some sort of way to know when to make the transition. And don't all of you come on here and say to just post, because I am sure that you get sick of reading stuff that people put on here when they have no idea what they are talking about.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
And don't all of you come on here and say to just post, because I am sure that you get sick of reading stuff that people put on here when they have no idea what they are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be surprised at our level of tolerance.Seriously, just post. It's the best way to learn because then people can point out the flaws in your thinking and explain things better to you.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is my first post. Been reading the micro-limit forums daily for the past two months but never posted. I have been playing online poker for about the last six months. Anyway, I have refrained from posting because I feel that my time is better spent reading what others who have played this game much longer than myself have to say. Regularly I read hand postings and the actions that I would have taken are in the minority of responders to say the least. I guess my question is this, how long should you just sit back and learn before you start actively participating? I know that there is no magic day or number of posts read, but there has to be some sort of way to know when to make the transition. And don't all of you come on here and say to just post, because I am sure that you get sick of reading stuff that people put on here when they have no idea what they are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

You won't get flamed unless you post 5 hands at once, either separately or in one thread. Other than that, you'll be fine, I promise.

Re: To the New, Aspiring Player
 

Greg has deleted this post post because it is pointless, retarded and insulting.

Instead, it's being replaced with a picture of Flava Flav:
http://www.adampwsmith.com/photoblog...0_p6105984.jpg
[b]YEAH BOIYYYYY!!!!