A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

Is that the average practioner's beliefs is not just a little more off the wall than those of more mainstream religionrs. Even if its precepts are only slightly nuttier. Because members of mainstream religions often take the silly details with a grain of salt. They call themselves Jews or Catholics or Methodists because they believe in God and because of social reasons. But deep down they have a lot of doubt about the specifics. Knowing that if they didn't, they would be morons.

I would think a much smaller percntage of Mormons or Calvinists, or Scientologists, etc. harbor these doubts. They would be more likely to leave if they did.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

I would contend that many or perhaps most of the people in these groups rarely think about the specifics. How many of them even know the specifics and their alternatives?

I doubt that the average religious person spends much time thinking about the minutiae of their respective religions. It simply doesn't matter much to one's day to day existence. How often do you think Mormons really stop to think about how Joseph Smith received his message from God?

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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How often do you think Mormons really stop to think about how Joseph Smith received his message from God?


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Sacrament meeting, Sunday school, primary, priesthood meeting, family home evening, visiting teachers, home teachers, Seminary class, etc, etc. I would say, at least 7 times a week. Note, that the Joseph Smith topic is a principal topic of discussion.

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How often do you think Mormons really stop to think about how Joseph Smith received his message from God?


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Sacrament meeting, Sunday school, primary, priesthood meeting, family home evening, visiting teachers, home teachers, Seminary class, etc, etc. I would say, at least 7 times a week. Note, that the Joseph Smith topic is a principal topic of discussion.

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Don't forget full/part time missionaries.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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I would contend that many or perhaps most of the people in these groups rarely think about the specifics. How many of them even know the specifics and their alternatives?

I doubt that the average religious person spends much time thinking about the minutiae of their respective religions. It simply doesn't matter much to one's day to day existence. How often do you think Mormons really stop to think about how Joseph Smith received his message from God?

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Yeah, I have to agree with others here. Every Mormon I've ever known was extremely well studied in his faith. Much more so than other religious sects I've had experience with. Also I agree with Sklanksy that this makes them all the more crazy.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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they have a lot of doubt about the specifics. Knowing that if they didn't, they would be morons.

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Please explain.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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Because members of mainstream religions often take the silly details with a grain of salt.

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I missed this thread, but it's serendipitous that I caught it today, since it ties in with something I was thinking about Romney.

People who are generally repulsed by religion should be all the more alarmed by Romney's Mormonism, not for the reason Sam Harris gives -- that it's even nuttier than mainstream Xtianity -- but rather because it is widely perceived to be nuttier.

Because this is the case, it is more convincing that Romney is sincere in his "illogical" beliefs than another candidate, for whom religion might be a political advantage.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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Yeah, I have to agree with others here. Every Mormon I've ever known was extremely well studied in his faith. Much more so than other religious sects I've had experience with.

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I don't know if this makes them more crazy or not, but for all their flaws, the Mormons are definitely dedicated.

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I missed this thread, but it's serendipitous that I caught it today, since it ties in with something I was thinking about Romney.

People who are generally repulsed by religion should be all the more alarmed by Romney's Mormonism, not for the reason Sam Harris gives -- that it's even nuttier than mainstream Xtianity -- but rather because it is widely perceived to be nuttier.

Because this is the case, it is more convincing that Romney is sincere in his "illogical" beliefs than another candidate, for whom religion might be a political advantage.



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I completely agree here. Senator Frank Church was a member of my personal Mormon Congregation in Eagle Idaho and he used Mormonism clearly, as a means to a political end ( from what I personally witnessed, he only showed up in church during election times and never at any other time). He, in my opinion didn’t take the faith seriously. However, most Mormons take their faith very seriously. If Romney has done the same thing as Church, then fine, but he needs to let people know that the Mormon prophet of God, won’t be a person guiding him, and that the country of Israel, with its contentions with the Arabs, won’t be a factor regarding the second coming of Christ, which is a huge factor in Mormon theology.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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Is that the average practioner's beliefs is not just a little more off the wall than those of more mainstream religionrs.

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So of what value if any is this point that you decided needed airing?

pokervintage

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

Cliff notes: people in cults are more credulous on average than people who are casually religious.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

This is silly. Mormonism is mainstream <u>in certain parts of the country</u>. There is absolutely no reason to make a big distinction between it and other Christian sects by saying things like "it's less mainstream, therefore it's a cult, therefore people who practice it are nuttier on average, because why else would they join a cult?" The simple fact is that people have a high propensity to believe what the community they were raised in believes. I give kudos to anyone who manages to break out of that mold, but as far as the candidates go I don't see that any of them have done that.

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This is silly. Mormonism is mainstream <u>in certain parts of the country</u>.

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Branch Davidians were mainstream inside of the compound, what is your point?


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There is absolutely no reason to make a big distinction between it and other Christian sects

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Actually there are lots of reasons to do just this. IWLOE.


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by saying things like "it's less mainstream, therefore it's a cult, therefore people who practice it are nuttier on average, because why else would they join a cult?"

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Thankfully I didn't say any of this.


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The simple fact is that people have a high propensity to believe what the community they were raised in believes

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Agreed! The fact that something becomes mainstream in a community doesn't stop it from being cult-ish to the rest of us.


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I give kudos to anyone who manages to break out of that mold, but as far as the candidates go I don't see that any of them have done that.

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Huh? What candidates?

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

"Calvinist" would include Prespbyterian, Congregationalist, Dutch Reformed and several other common Protestant denominations. I think it's rather strange to include them in the "non-mainstream" category. For that matter, if you live in Utah, Mormonism is mainstream, and a lot of members of the Mormon church in Utah don't take it all that seriously.

I think in general, converts are often more passionate in their beliefs than those raised in a religion, whether the religion is "mainstream" or not. After all a convert has made a conscious choice to adhere to a faith, as opposed to not going against his upbringing.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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This is silly. Mormonism is mainstream <u>in certain parts of the country</u>.

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Branch Davidians were mainstream inside of the compound, what is your point?

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My point has been made:
"The simple fact is that people have a high propensity to believe what the community they were raised in believes."


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There is absolutely no reason to make a big distinction between it and other Christian sects

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Actually there are lots of reasons to do just this. IWLOE.

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IWLOE?


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by saying things like "it's less mainstream, therefore it's a cult, therefore people who practice it are nuttier on average, because why else would they join a cult?"

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Thankfully I didn't say any of this.

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What is your reasoning then?


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The simple fact is that people have a high propensity to believe what the community they were raised in believes

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Agreed! The fact that something becomes mainstream in a community doesn't stop it from being cult-ish to the rest of us.

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Yes. Only on an intuitive level, though. It shouldn't say anything about the rationality or intelligence of those coming out of such communities as opposed to those coming out of communities practicing religions that are mainstream to the country as a whole.


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I give kudos to anyone who manages to break out of that mold, but as far as the candidates go I don't see that any of them have done that.

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Huh? What candidates?

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There was another thread in which someone was attacking Romney for being a Mormon. I confused the two. My bad.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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My point has been made:
"The simple fact is that people have a high propensity to believe what the community they were raised in believes."

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Agreed as long as we don't limit this to religion.


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IWLOE?

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I Will Let Others Elaborate. DUCY?


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What is your reasoning then?

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This is the only statement I was making: Mormonism and Scientology are closer to being a cult than mainstream Christianity is. Therefore, it would make sense that the more devout members probably have less of the doubts that DS was referring to, being the type of person more susceptible to cults in the first place.

My reasoning for placing these groups along the cult-religion line is based on my understanding of each group's beliefs. Pretty arbitrary though since it could be argued that Christianity was a cult too and only became a religion because of time and geography.


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It shouldn't say anything about the rationality or intelligence of those coming out of such communities as opposed to those coming out of communities practicing religions that are mainstream to the country as a whole.

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Maybe. The farther away from normal the beliefs become, the more chances there are for a reasonable person to say "wtf" and roll out. No way to bet on it now, but surely your average Koresh follower was way more irrational/unintelligent than your average American protestant.


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There was another thread in which someone was attacking Romney for being a Mormon. I confused the two. My bad.

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His being Mormon does not explicitly makes him a worse candidate. That being said, I think there are a fair number of questions he should be expected to answer about his faith if he is seeking the highest office in the world. I am sure this was all covered in other threads and I don't feel like making an already maddening forum even more maddening by making it political too.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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This is the only statement I was making: Mormonism and Scientology are closer to being a cult than mainstream Christianity is. Therefore, it would make sense that the more devout members probably have less of the doubts that DS was referring to, being the type of person more susceptible to cults in the first place.

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So are you saying that if I grew up in a Mormon area and became a Mormon, this requires me to be "more susceptible to cults" than if I grew up in a protestant area and became a protestant? If so then I don't see why. And why do you assume that they must have less doubts about their religion?

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The farther away from normal the beliefs become, the more chances there are for a reasonable person to say "wtf" and roll out.

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Maybe, but Mormonism is large enough and close enough to "normal Christianity" that I don't see this applying. If you're a Mormon and you look at all the different religions and sects stemming from Abraham, I don't think your own religion stands out as being abnormal. Also if you continue to live in Mormon heavy communities your beliefs would still not be "far away from normal".

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There was another thread in which someone was attacking Romney for being a Mormon. I confused the two. My bad.

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His being Mormon does not explicitly makes him a worse candidate. That being said, I think there are a fair number of questions he should be expected to answer about his faith if he is seeking the highest office in the world.

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I can't say I agree, but like you said that's a different topic.

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there are various definitions of the word "cult." According to dictionary.com, the 1st definition:
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1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

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refers to all religions.

The other common usage:
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A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.


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This is sort of meaningless because ALL religions think all the other religions are wrong.

I don't see how anyone can look rationally at the beliefs of most of the major religions and think the others are any more extreme.

Christianity has blood rituals, human sacrifice, magic floods with impossible boats, magic, etc. Mormons are hardly any sillier.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

(I have no point to make here, just thought I'd share)

My parents were in this Indian spiritual group when I was a kid. It's illegal in India and is on some list of "most dangerous cults". The chess grandmaster Korchnoi was a member. From my experiences (I was pretty young before my parents split with the group) it was a pleasant group of people. Vegetarians, into yoga and meditation. One result is that I'm a white kid with an Indian name. But I like it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

It sounds like this is turning into you defending Mormomnism from me, which I do not feel like getting into and is drifting from the point of the thread.


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So are you saying that if I grew up in a Mormon area and became a Mormon, this requires me to be "more susceptible to cults" than if I grew up in a protestant area and became a protestant?

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No, that is not what I am saying at all.


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Maybe, but Mormonism is large enough and close enough to "normal Christianity" that I don't see this applying.

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Sorry, but this is not a very good argument for anything. Mormonism's size and how close *you* think the beliefs run are not evidence of anything.


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If you're a Mormon and you look at all the different religions and sects stemming from Abraham, I don't think your own religion stands out as being abnormal. Also if you continue to live in Mormon heavy communities your beliefs would still not be "far away from normal".

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Also not a very good argument.


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I can't say I agree, but like you said that's a different topic.

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Of course you don't agree, DUCY?

For starters, I would feel weird voting for someone whose family was the head of an officially racist organization for so many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...ter-day_Saints

At least they time their "revelations" better and don't wait around for thousands of years to apologize like the Pope does.

Re: A Point About The Less Mainstream Religions
 

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It sounds like this is turning into you defending Mormomnism from me, which I do not feel like getting into and is drifting from the point of the thread.

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Mormonism is an example that was brought up and I'm just responding. If you'd like to bring up a different example that'd be fine.


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So are you saying that if I grew up in a Mormon area and became a Mormon, this requires me to be "more susceptible to cults" than if I grew up in a protestant area and became a protestant?

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No, that is not what I am saying at all.

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Then you're saying...?


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Maybe, but Mormonism is large enough and close enough to "normal Christianity" that I don't see this applying.

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Sorry, but this is not a very good argument for anything. Mormonism's size and how close *you* think the beliefs run are not evidence of anything.

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I didn't realize we were talking hard evidence. Is there a study you'd like to share? Otherwise I could say the same to you. I am merely responding to intuitive speculations with intuitive speculations of my own.


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If you're a Mormon and you look at all the different religions and sects stemming from Abraham, I don't think your own religion stands out as being abnormal. Also if you continue to live in Mormon heavy communities your beliefs would still not be "far away from normal".

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Also not a very good argument.

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Because...?

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For starters, I would feel weird voting for someone whose family was the head of an officially racist organization for so many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...ter-day_Saints

At least they time their "revelations" better and don't wait around for thousands of years to apologize like the Pope does.

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Different topic. Different topic. I will say again "my bad".