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- - QQ-Question (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=516213)

Hey,
with no reads or stats what do you do with QQ on the button facing a raise (4BB) from MP and reraise from the CO (14BB)? Assuming 100BB effective stacks.

This isn't a clear call or fold or raise I think. Allthough new to the table I never raise here. Should I?

With no reads at all you might have to fold it, again'st agressive players who are making raises like this with AK, AQ, or AJ you might call I suppose. Defiantly a tough situation. With Jack's I would instafold but with QQ I find it harder to get away from.

Are you guys really folding here? Wow, I would never fold this. Even a tight player's re-raising range from the CO looks like JJ+ and AQ+, and we're definitely ahead of that.

Depends on the level and online or B&M.

Online:
Micro (NL2-NL25) - 4-bet to 30BB. Fold if they come back over the top. 3-bets at this level are typically done with a lot of PPs and ATs+. Pushing over the top of a 4-bet is almost always AA/KK.

Higher - Folding becomes an option. I'd probably call to see the flop about 50%, folding most of the others. If a Q comes, you're golden. If not and an A comes, bet into a check or fold to a bet. (I like betting into a check when an A comes because KK hates that flop. Don't bet TOO much, though, because you need to be able to get away from it on a c/r.)

B&M:
1/2 to 2/5 - I can make an argument for any of the three options and would probably do each about 1/3 of the time. This is a really read-dependent situation.

Higher - Probably fold 90%.

All of this said, I don't think folding is ever REALLY wrong with no reads. There is no clear-cut answer.

I would need a read to fold. So it's either call or repop it. If I reraise and he shoves then I throw up a little in my mouth.

Calling lets you get away cheaper if the flop looks bad for you but it also invites in the original raiser (although unlikely he calls too) and considering you're probably ahead of his range, lets him see the flop for free.

so you both have over 100bbs you need to have a good read on your opp. Otherwise folding here is a big mistake. I would make a reraise to about 35xs bb. You need to takes some gambles to win a tourny. You are looking for what to play if folding QQ. Mp player coupd be opening with anything from KJ down to 55. CO player should sense that and with deep stack his raise means ok you are not running over the table. I have a little somethig. You reraise means I am here to stay this is my table get out now or put all your chips in the pot. Be agressive dont be affraid to go broke. I would be folding AQ AJ or less here but big PPs are to be played. Folding = way to tight passive

Dreed, What if it's a cash game?

The range of hands that makes the reraise sensible are AK, KK, AA and NO OTHERS. So to any sensible reraise QQ is at BEST only 50/50! The times when you find yourself against AA or KK take your EV significantly below 50/50. You can ONLY LOSE long run by calling a sensible reraise in this situation - unless your street play is much better than average AND there are deep stacks. Bear in mind that it's winning poker long-run to assume that random opponents make sensible raises.

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Dreed, What if it's a cash game?

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If it's a cash game and I got no read at all, ditch, every time.

What does a person make that kind of raise with with people acting behind? Best case scenario a guy is coming over the top agianst a guy who's been stealing at a table you've just sat down at, but that is a hell of a thing to assume.

It just isn't tens or jacks.

Tournament play, I tend to re-raise in most situations.

If this is at any limit under 50NL, I push here, every time.

Gotta take some of the coinflips they give ya. Players at micro-levels don't understand how to play high pocket pairs at all, and almost 90% of the time will try and slowplay them. The 14BB reraise would indicate, IMO, (AK:A10,KQ:K10) kind of thing. He doesn't want you playing the pot, he wants the original raise in his stack, and that's that.

That said, PUSHHHH!

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The range of hands that makes the reraise sensible are AK, KK, AA and NO OTHERS.

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I completely disagree, unless sensible = nit. The range has to at least include JJ and AQs.

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The range of hands that makes the reraise sensible are AK, KK, AA and NO OTHERS.

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I completely disagree, unless sensible = nit. The range has to at least include JJ and AQs.

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I guess you will be informed concerning the tables you normally play at, the general level of lunatics out there. A raise like that with jacks is a bit mad...I guess the question is, how often are you going to come up against an idiot overplaying Jacks and how many times are you going to come up against a guy who has it?

Finally, who is going to CALL you with AQ? Nobody. So when you win, you will just be winning the two big bets in front of you, when you lose it will be your whole stack.

And sometimes it will be an AK coin flip.

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Depends on the level and online or B&M.

Online:
Micro (NL2-NL25) - 4-bet to 30BB. Fold if they come back over the top. 3-bets at this level are typically done with a lot of PPs and ATs+. Pushing over the top of a 4-bet is almost always AA/KK.

Higher - Folding becomes an option. I'd probably call to see the flop about 50%, folding most of the others. If a Q comes, you're golden. If not and an A comes, bet into a check or fold to a bet. (I like betting into a check when an A comes because KK hates that flop. Don't bet TOO much, though, because you need to be able to get away from it on a c/r.)

B&M:
1/2 to 2/5 - I can make an argument for any of the three options and would probably do each about 1/3 of the time. This is a really read-dependent situation.

Higher - Probably fold 90%.

All of this said, I don't think folding is ever REALLY wrong with no reads. There is no clear-cut answer.

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I'll go back to this. There are so many what if's in this situation. The problem is you have NO reads. You can assign any characteristics and/or tendencies to the players you want. Sensible, tight, maniac whatever. Same goes for hand ranges. You know nothing about the reraiser, or the initial raiser for that matter, so how can you possibly hope to assign a hand range. You can make a guess, but you have no idea of how accurate it is. You can use generalities but this isn't going to be entirely accurate either.

A player inclined to play in this situation is going to make assumptions allowing him to play. A player inclined to fold here will make a different set of assumptions allowing him to fold.

Personally I wouldn't fold. I'll sometimes call and sometimes reraise. But I can't really find fault in folding and waiting till you have more info before getting involved in a hand like this.