Need some help starting up a poker room
 

Hello 2+2. Just a long time lurker coming out of the shadows.

For a few months a good friend of mine has been interested in starting a cardroom. It always seemed like a good idea, yet we we never took the initiative because of our schedules.

As luck would have it, the owners of a local billiard hall we frequent found out we were poker players and approached us about starting up a game in their top floor. The space would allow for 2 tables at most, and would be a small operation, from which we'd give the owners $150 a night.

I frequent many underground rooms, but have no experience starting one of my own. I am very enthusiastic about doing this, as we have very many people in the area who love poker as well as a good demographic of non-players who frequent the billiard hall who could play casually.

I want to run things the best way possible, and that includes being secure, discreet, and professional. This would be a nightly game with max 18 players at a time.

I have a budget of about $2000 to dedicate to startup costs, and I am asking all of you for input as to what is most important to consider when opening up a room. Thanks for reading.

Additional Info:
I have been going through tons of websites looking for the right kind of chip I should get, comparing brands, looks, clay vs. composite vs. composite with inlays vs. plastics vs. ceramics. Its kind of overwhelming because I want nice chips but I dont want to spend a fortune...
Any advice on the matter, particularly based on personal experience, would be much appreciated.
My friend and I would be handling the cash, chips, and dealing. On days we cannot make it, there is no game.
We are thinking of charging 10% rake up to $3, which is fairly cheap, however, we wont be providing many freebies other than some snacks. Is the Royal Flush/Bad Beat Jackpot a good idea to attract players (This would increase the rake by $1)

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

wow this is a great idea

post on a public forum asking for advice on starting up an illegal poker room

pure genius

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

If you are going to start an underground game dont do it in a bar for god sakes. You are just asking to get caught. Do it at a private residence. If its illegal you want to cater to people who you either know or is a legit friend of someone you know. Since it will only be 18 max a night it is easier and best if you know who those 18 are.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

notice i did not mention where it would be located. As far as the players go, many of them would be friends and people we already know. Ideally we would want to have it in a private location, but right now we dont have those kinds of funds. This will likely be a small 1/2 nl game lasting 5 hours running 2-3 days a week. Not exactly a full fledged poker club, more like a private game.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

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Do it at a private residence, so that the cops can use "asset forfeiture" laws when they charge you as an organized crime gambling operation, and someone you know and love can lose their house.

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Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

In before ....

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hello 2+2. Just a long time lurker coming out of the shadows.

For a few months a good friend of mine has been interested in starting a cardroom. It always seemed like a good idea, yet we we never took the initiative because of the legality of a poker room .

As luck would have it, the owners of a local billiard hall we frequent found out we were poker players and approached us about starting up a game in their top floor. The space would allow for 2 tables at most, and would be a small operation, from which we'd give the owners $150 a night.

I frequent many underground rooms, but have no experience starting one of my own. I am very enthusiastic about doing this, as we have very many people in the area who love poker as well as a good demographic of non-players who frequent the billiard hall who could play casually.

I want to run things the best way possible, and that includes being secure, discreet, and professional. This would be a nightly game with max 18 players at a time.

I have a budget of about $2000 to dedicate to startup costs, and I am asking all of you for input as to what is most important to consider when opening up a room. Thanks for reading.

Additional Info:
I have been going through tons of websites looking for the right kind of chip I should get, comparing brands, looks, clay vs. composite vs. composite with inlays vs. plastics vs. ceramics. Its kind of overwhelming because I want nice chips but I dont want to spend a fortune...
Any advice on the matter, particularly based on personal experience, would be much appreciated.
My friend and I would be handling the cash, chips, and dealing. On days we cannot make it, there is no game.
We are thinking of charging 10% rake up to $3, which is fairly cheap, however, we wont be providing many freebies other than some snacks. Is the Royal Flush/Bad Beat Jackpot a good idea to attract players (This would increase the rake by $1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you gave any thought to the legal ramifications behind this?

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to start an underground game dont do it in a bar for god sakes. You are just asking to get caught. Do it at a private residence.

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This is the worst advice you can give. While a bar may not be the ideal location, a private residence is the worst idea. Lets invite people (some of whom are degenerate gamblers, some of whom are not going to be the cleanest, or nicest, or most honest people) into somebodies private residence.

most of the clubs I played in were actually rented out store fronts claiming to be "social clubs". I have played in vacant businesses, and in one case a house which was not anyones residence it was used exclusively for poker.

If you are going to be robbed, do you want the robbery at home or somewhere else. If there is going to be a fight do you want it in your house or in the backroom of a bowling alley, if you are going to have a visit form the police do you want it in your house or in your "social club"

When you cater to only people you know its not underground game its a hiome game, he wants to run a profit making business here and that means he is going to have to wider player base than a home game. Sure you don't want have a situation where everyone in town knows about the game, but you will need for people more than just your friends and "Their legit" friends. You will need your friend's friend's acquaintances who play poker.

What you seem to be advising is to run a home game but charge a rake.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

Guys, answer his question. He's obviously an adult who has been to underground rooms and knows the risks, let the legal issues be his business.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

you should clearly be starting this in your parents basement.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

I would stay away from jackpots, they require that you maintain a chunk of money (which could be a draw to robberies) and they require that your players have faith that you won't just pocket the money.

As far as chips go, don't worry about fancy, don't worry about having nice chips, just make sure that you have unique chips so that you don't worry about someone ringing in.

How much competetion is there in this market? are their legal rooms nearby, many underground games? If not much competition I would consider bringing your rake up to $5 max and be more genrous with your freebies. Buying people dinner isn't a huge expense and really goes a long way for goodwill.

Also every underground game that I played in the operator of the game had to put money in, either by staking players, or lending money (much of which would never be paid back). This is just a cost of operating and keeping a game running, but its another reason to rake $5 instead of $3.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

I'm not sure about this, but you may be able to find a related thread if you search. Perhaps in Home Poker?

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

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In before ....

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nothing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] We wont lock this thread. The policy on underground games has always been only the owner of the card room and discuss his or her business, if the OP wants to take that risk than so be it.

OP - what state will your card room operate in? Make sure you have a tax attorney , and a criminal attorney on hand and prepared in advance. You will need both for sure, don't wait until after you open because its inevitable that someday you will be busted; this is par for the course.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

OP my guess is that you are in NJ since your username is borgata boy.

I know 2 guys that run a similiar type card game that started out very similiar to yours.

Realize a few things:
Other people in the pool hall will find out about the game. They will see lots of traffic up and down the stairs to the game etc... the game will not be as secretive as you think.

Eventually the pool hall where this game ran was closed down and the game moved to a rented office. 2 weeks ago they got robbed.

Reason for this, they had 0 security and let just about anybody come. They let friends bring friends who brought friends etc.

It is entirely up to you whether you do this or not but as psandman said i believe, its only a matter of time before you get busted or robbed.

laslty sandman is also correct that you will be a huge source for lending money. People are going to go broke and want to borrow from the house. You may know want to but you may need to in order to keep the game going.

It started out in a back room at a pool hall.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

get Chips with atleast your name or logo on it and order it from a website and not just some local "HAI I can Engrave your Chips" duder. If you use some run of the mill chips they will be easily faked.

Are you opening in an area with a bunch of diffrent card rooms? Or is there one main room and a bunch of little rooms keep getting shut down? If so there is a reason for this, try and figure that out on your own. Make sure you aren't stepping on anyones Toes, capice.

Prepare for a Raid , its coming, I promise. No drugs, no guns no nothing else. You will be arrested (its a matter of time) don't give them anything extra.
Get Camera and tape and see if you can get the recording stored off site.

BBJ in an underground rooms isn't whats attracting players [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


It almost sounds like you are raking a home game, I doubt you will have much issue if thats the case

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

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Get Camera and tape and see if you can get the recording stored off site.

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I agree, this is very important. Get the tapes off-site, standard VCR with multi-camera solutions will just get you in trouble in the long run. Remote video stored on your hard drive - at a safe location that is not your home is the only way to go, I hate them but X10.com can help.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

thanks for the replies people. I know of the risks going in, but honestly I dont know if my idea will create so much action that itll invite attention from police or people with bad intentions. The room will likely just be 1 table, much like a home game, but with a nice table, efficient dealer and rules, good cards, television, nice chips, and a small rake. We could probably skip the rake altogether and work off tips but we need to pay the place that gives us the space.
Do you really think a place like this (it will likely only run for a few months while I build a bankroll), will likely get visited by police? We arent attracting people from all over and we're not relying on this to be an everyday game.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

You're just going to get robbed. I doubt the police will show up.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the replies people. I know of the risks going in, but honestly I dont know if my idea will create so much action that itll invite attention from police or people with bad intentions. The room will likely just be 1 table, much like a home game, but with a nice table, efficient dealer and rules, good cards, television, nice chips, and a small rake. We could probably skip the rake altogether and work off tips but we need to pay the place that gives us the space.
Do you really think a place like this (it will likely only run for a few months while I build a bankroll), will likely get visited by police? We arent attracting people from all over and we're not relying on this to be an everyday game.

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eventually it will be raided, might take a year or so but eventually what comes up must come down. NJ (assuming your in NJ) has some of the toughest anti-gambling laws in the nation, jailtime is likely if they raid the game.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

If you don't start to build a bigger base then just your immediate friends then your game is a home game.

And you need to ask yourself the following questions:
Is it worth $150 for this space to play your home game.

And your guests will start to ask why am I paying a rake to play a game with my friends. I can invite my friends over to my house and we can play for free.

As to police attention

well one thing is clear, playing your home game at a billiard hall clearly has more risk than playing your home game at home.

Will it get police attention well that depends on a lot of things such as where you are, local police's priorities, whether you have problems that force police attention. You have a brawl at the game, or even just at the billiard hall. Someone thinks they got ripped off and goes to the police. Where i played the police didn't care about these underground games. One game I played in was actually going on whne the police raided the club for bookmaking even though they found the game going they made no arrests for the poker game (some players were targets of the bookmaking investigation, but the guy running the poker game wasn't charged and the dealer wasn't charged. All the money was taken, but given back the next day. Another game I played in was robbed and there were gunshots fired. The police actually lied to the local media and told them it was just a friendly home game when in fact it was obvious to anyone including the police who walked in what was going on. But in another town they have reacted differently.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

You will need more than 2 grand to keep the cops bribed.

interesting
 

so if we just ran a game there and took no rake and no tips the police wouldnt care? They will care if the dealer gets tipped a few bucks a night?

Re: interesting
 

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so if we just ran a game there and took no rake and no tips the police wouldnt care?

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depending on the laws of your state this may or may not be illegal.

Re: interesting
 

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so if we just ran a game there and took no rake and no tips the police wouldnt care? They will care if the dealer gets tipped a few bucks a night?

[/ QUOTE ]

in the state on NJ poker is only legal at a licensed casino. There have been numerous attempts at finding loopholes, every one to date that I am aware of has failed.

tough love advice time - if you don't already know the answers to these basic questions, then operating a tiny poker room is probably not the best idea.

Re: interesting
 

LOL @ bribing the cops, I see we're back to the romantic illusions in films line of thinking in this forum. Agree with above that if you aren't aware of the laws, this may not be the best course of action for you.

I doubt you would have an issue with running simply a home game with no rake.

Re: interesting
 

ideally we'd be running a home game, but for the time being we dont have the space. This place is offering a small room of our own (only we can access it) and we'd be running a game basically just composed of my partners friends, family, and poker buddies. We only charge rake to pay for our usage of the room. Most room busts that I hear of are caused by neighbors complaining about noise or someone getting cheated. I find little risk of the first happening as its above a business, and as long as Im dealing theres very little risk of foul-play. A potential robbery would probably yield a few thousand at most, and theyd have to come very well armed to get through the entire billiard hall full of people.

Re: interesting
 

Do. Not. Attempt. This.

Especially in NJ.

You may get by in the short term. You WILL get robbed or raided in the long run.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

Pool halls with floors above them. Hmmm..must be what? 400,000, 500,000 in the tri-state area? They'll never figure it out.

Hey...great idea? Have everybody jump on a bus and go to AC!

Re: interesting
 

borgataboy - It seems you think you already have all the answers, sounds like you didn't want to hear the truth from people with real-world experience. Good luck, report back to us after you have run the room for one year with results.

Re: interesting
 

im very open to ideas, but most of the feedback seems to be coming from people with firm opinions but no personal experience running a small game. Theyll tell me its a terrible idea but no one will give me ideas of how I can make it work. I know its not legal. I know its not the absolute best situation. Im just letting you guys know what my situation is and hoping a few of you can give me some pointers.

Re: interesting
 

yes, i play at the borgata but I am not from NJ. This game would not be in NJ.

Re: interesting
 

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so if we just ran a game there and took no rake and no tips the police wouldnt care? They will care if the dealer gets tipped a few bucks a night?

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My parents moved to Redmond, OR a few years ago and there used to be a bar downtown that spread some sick juicy 1/2 PLHE and PLO8 games. "Social gambling" is legal in Redmond, so they weren't allowed to rake the game (so...I'm still not entirely sure why they ran it, maybe just to get people into the bar and hope they ordered drinks?), and according to the people there this extended to tipping the dealer as well. The result: A jar next to the dealer saying "soda machine donations" (since free soda was provided) which obv everyone at the table knew was really going to the dealer.

The game eventually got shut down by the State. I have no idea if it was over tipping or what, and the reason the State used was that the game provided competition to the video poker machines in the bar. But yeah, in this instance even tipping wasn't ok.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

I've got just the thread for you:

TwoRooks

Re: interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
im very open to ideas, but most of the feedback seems to be coming from people with firm opinions but no personal experience running a small game

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don't be naive, what makes you think none of us who have responded have ever operated a private game before? Your not supposed to announce these things ya know, the walls have ears. There is one promoter and one dealer from underground clubs here. In this thread.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

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I've got just the thread for you:

TwoRooks

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nh sir...I obviously suck at searching the tubes

Re: interesting
 

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yes, i play at the borgata but I am not from NJ. This game would not be in NJ.

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I suggest Boston, MA or Chicago, IL if you want to be able to juice the cops in with confidence.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

Good thing your not thinking of running your game in northern NJ. The Soprano crew runs the "Executive Game" in that area, and if you get in their territory, you won't have to worry about the NJ police.

Respect Paulie Walnuts.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

Vaseline. It will make your stay in jail easier.

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

I find myself seriously considering starting a home game so I can play limit O/8 without driving to Argosy or Aztar. I can run it from a friend's business location and probably wouldn't even rake the game just need to figure out how to compensate the dealer(s).

Re: Need some help starting up a poker room
 

I've played in such rooms for several years. Although I've recently quit and play only at Casino's due to the owner (of my most recent fav gray game) not being able to keep the game tight and clean enough for me. That's another story....

First, I've been a member of 3 different clubs that all made it over a year, one 2 years old, the other I think is 4 or 5 years old. The cops don't care to much if they don't get complaints. When husbands go home broke week after week the wife calls the police. You must throw out these terrible losers or you'll eventually get too much attention. If they can't afford to be there you don't want them there. Believe me 95% of all players are losing money in the game just like 95% of all your friends and buddies are. If there was no rake, on average we'd all be break even.

Every successful card room needs to be located next door to an all night business like a bar or strip club. (the pool room might be perfect) Now that sounds odd but bear with me. When a building without an liquer license has 20 cars parked in front of it after last call it gets attention. All the rooms I've been a memeber of have such locations so the cars all blend in. However they stupidly stay open beyond the cover business's hours which I think is a mistake. Close down with the pool hall.

You can't let anybody in unless somebody you know brings them in. 100% no exceptions.

You can't let any drugies or thieves in period. If you do, one of them is going to turn on you (they'll tell on anybody) to get the heat off them when they get in trouble with thier other activities. They'll be the ones to bring in the cop and get them signed up.

Incidentally this is exactly how one of our local clubs got shut down about a year ago.

Understand cops play poker too. My last club has every kind of person you could imagine in it, a couple police officers (trusted in the poker community obviously), school principle, business owners, pawn shop owners, housewives, retiries, everything even some guys with no visible means of support. ;-)

Your going to grow a big game and a very profitable business very quickly regardless of what your thinking, just forget about that "just a few buddies" mentality, it's a fantasy. The money will change you, trust me.

You'll be expected to feed and water everybody. Pizza is ok for a while but it gets old.

Start each day with a tourny that moves on to live action as players get knocked out. This is how you attract players and build customers for a few busy nights a week.

Get a real dealer. Players who are being raked want a professional dealer, not a home dealer who's pretty good if the salt and pepper shaker are out of the way. A real dealer will deal out many more hands per hour which is how you bring money in. Everything I've ever been told and witnessed at my local clubs (and I known several of the dealers) tells me the pay they get is the tips they collect. For a good fast dealer that's around 15 hands every 30min. Oh yea, you need 2 dealers, nobody can deal without a break. They normally work on 30min shifts. You need at least 1 more dealer than the number of tables your running.

Get real tables or build nice ones. Nobody wants to play on some crappy home table or poorly built one. This is a big part of what keeps them coming back. A good proquality table even used might be $400-500 before you spend $100 to recover it.

Play by the rules, all of them all the time. Let somebody leave feeling cheated and you've started down the hill to failure. If you can't control this your game will gradually degenerate until it isn't any better than a home game or worse. And trust me, people will cheat where money is involved, they'll hide high value chips, soft play thier buddies, play more than one person to a hand, stack off thier hands (or othewise signal hole cards), peak at other players cards, you name it, they'll do it and you have to be watchful and nip these problems in the bud. Usually these types are terrible losers if they can't cheat and when they see they can't run teams (or whatever thier scam is) they'll move on to another game.

Rake the pot by the same rules as the nearest casino and consider doing it for $1 less per pot. You have to give your players incentive to play with you and also a reason to protect the club. If you over rake, more players go broke faster and it results in them not staying involved with in poker as long which eventually costs you.

It's hard work to do it well. Your job is to keep the game going and full and you'll have to back players especially at first to accomplish that. I've sat in as a shill many times to help my club owner (we split the profit if any on the stack he gives me.) It's also your job to ease the players loses and when they have a bad night. They need somebody to tell the bad beat story and that will be YOU. Remember, most of your players will be there to have a good time, your the host, make sure it happens just like that and you'll have a good game going.

Be sure to invite me. ;-)

Dave