JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

Party Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $140.91
UTG: $144.70
Hero (MP): $355.10
CO: $297
BTN: $211
SB: $176

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG calls $2, <font color="red">Hero raises to $9</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $27</font>, 4 folds, Hero calls $18

Flop: ($59) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $35</font>, Hero calls $35

Turn: ($129) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $54</font>, Hero calls $54

River: ($237) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $181 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $237 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO mucked and WON $234 (+$299 NET)

Villain is 27/13/3 and has repopped my LP opens a fair bit. I haven't played back much yet. Even so I don't think he is 3betting too light after an UTG limp and my UTG+1 raise. He seems to play well postflop from what I have seen. Anyone play this differently?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

I fold the turn even with his bet size

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

though spot, I think you should 4 bet here pf but not pot, something like 62. and fold to a push. from my experience, regs only over push to a 4 bet with KK AA so you can saftly fold to a push and make any light 3 bet pay.

not sure though, would like to hear from others

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

4bet and fold to a shove is terrible, I completely lose the value of my hand doing that. And I don't think he is calling my 4bet or 5bet shoving light enough that I can 4bet/call.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

PF is fine. I'd lead this flop. As played on the flop, I'd lead the turn and shut it down if raised/called.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

no way you should be 4bet/folding this preflop. preflop is fine imo but be prepared for some difficult postflop situations! JJ is a trouble hand for me. One really good player once said "think JJ = 99 and you wont play it very wrong". I just c/f turn.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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PF is fine. I'd lead this flop. As played on the flop, I'd lead the turn and shut it down if raised/called.

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Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

I really want to turn my hand into a bluff and c/r turn all-in here. Not saying I would, but I'm just saying...

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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I really want to turn my hand into a bluff and c/r turn all-in here. Not saying I would, but I'm just saying...

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I was actually thinking this too after I posted. Might be too spewy?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

I c/f turn.

Jay/all,
if the river blanks are you calling a shove?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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I really want to turn my hand into a bluff and c/r turn all-in here. Not saying I would, but I'm just saying...

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I think his bet size prolly means big pair+[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Even if it is a scared black QQ+ he wont fold it in rr pot for 150bs ime.

Jay I prolly play it the same. I might c/r flop an get it in w/ 100bb stacks given your history(esp if you think villain is aware you could be isoing a bad utg(?) light) but that gets a bit iffy w/ 150bb I think.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

So if you arn't 4 betting this pre and you are only calling the flop, how do you justify the turn call? You are obviously putting him on a overpair / hopeing he has AK, so why call the turn? you don't have a heart....his AK with one heart will bet everytime to get you off 88, 99, JJ. ...?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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I really want to turn my hand into a bluff and c/r turn all-in here. Not saying I would, but I'm just saying...

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I was actually thinking this too after I posted. Might be too spewy?

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it's not really turning it into a bluff. You're protecting your hand from getting drawn from overcards/flush draw.

I was considering this line. If villain has a bigger overpair, we're stacking. If he has AQ/AT/AJ and bluffs the K at the river, we have no idea where we're at. It makes our decision really tough on the river by just c/c turn.

I'd c/r turn or donk the turn.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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I really want to turn my hand into a bluff and c/r turn all-in here. Not saying I would, but I'm just saying...

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I was actually thinking this too after I posted. Might be too spewy?

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it's not really turning it into a bluff. You're protecting your hand from getting drawn from overcards/flush draw.

I was considering this line. If villain has a bigger overpair, we're stacking. If he has AQ/AT/AJ and bluffs the K at the river, we have no idea where we're at. It makes our decision really tough on the river by just c/c turn.

I'd c/r turn or donk the turn.

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yep, as played, on turn either crai or c/f, both are marginal.

c/c is worst.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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I really want to turn my hand into a bluff and c/r turn all-in here. Not saying I would, but I'm just saying...

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This is terrible without a read imo. Not only does people like to stack off with JJ+ in this spot, but all those hands can easily have a decent fd.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

Villain isnt bluffing a blank/K river for a nrly full stack 100% of the time.

Where not playing Durr at 25/50 an it wouldnt necessarily be a gd play anyway.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

yuck...OOP vs a LAG I just 4bet/call

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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So if you arn't 4 betting this pre and you are only calling the flop, how do you justify the turn call? You are obviously putting him on a overpair / hopeing he has AK, so why call the turn? you don't have a heart....his AK with one heart will bet everytime to get you off 88, 99, JJ. ...?

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what are you talking about? I said I FOLD turn.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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Villain isnt bluffing a blank/K river for a nrly full stack 100% of the time.

Where not playing Durr at 25/50 an it wouldnt necessarily be a gd play anyway.

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You really think villain is going to check behind with unpaired hands on the King river? I don't think villain bluffs a blank river here with good frequency, but he's bluffing a K here a lot. Even with 88 and 99.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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So if you arn't 4 betting this pre and you are only calling the flop, how do you justify the turn call? You are obviously putting him on a overpair / hopeing he has AK, so why call the turn? you don't have a heart....his AK with one heart will bet everytime to get you off 88, 99, JJ. ...?

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what are you talking about? I said I FOLD turn.

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I wasn't responding to you. I was talking to the thread in general. Voicing my opionion... etc.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

lol

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

c/f the turn all day

also, I think of a 27/13 as a donk, not a lag.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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Villain isnt bluffing a blank/K river for a nrly full stack 100% of the time.

Where not playing Durr at 25/50 an it wouldnt necessarily be a gd play anyway.

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You really think villain is going to check behind with unpaired hands on the King river? I don't think villain bluffs a blank river here with good frequency, but he's bluffing a K here a lot. Even with 88 and 99.

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There's only 4 K's in the deck so that's not a huge concern and a relative unknown(laggish or not) is def checking 88/99 more than he's firing on a K river.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

ah crap, the numbers are wrong, meant to say he is 27/23/3. Even so I don't think he 3bets 88/99 types of hands here.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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ah crap, the numbers are wrong, meant to say he is 27/23/3. Even so I don't think he 3bets 88/99 types of hands here.

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4bet call push. imo

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

I'd 4bet pre to about 87-95 and jam it in on the flop.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

shove flop

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

Probably cf turn. I'd rather donk turn than cc though.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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shove flop

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that cant be optimal

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

Jay, would you mind PMing me this HH? I see an error.

Thanks.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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shove flop

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that cant be optimal

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why?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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shove flop

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that cant be optimal

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why?

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villain has to call like $240 into a $200 pot...what worse hands are calling that bet?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

100bb I stack off here all day. 150bb deep though is dodgey.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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So if you arn't 4 betting this pre and you are only calling the flop, how do you justify the turn call? You are obviously putting him on a overpair / hopeing he has AK, so why call the turn? you don't have a heart....his AK with one heart will bet everytime to get you off 88, 99, JJ. ...?

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what are you talking about? I said I FOLD turn.

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I wasn't responding to you. I was talking to the thread in general. Voicing my opionion... etc.

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sorry then, but you kind of responded to my post Re:rockofgibraltar. meh, np! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

Thinking about it I kinda like donking flop for 1/2 pottish w/ the intention of getting it in. It's kinda risky w/ just the knowledge that he's 27/23 an repopping a bit but I prefer it to c/shove.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

if he's been bullying you around then i think that donking the flop/shoving over any raise is pretty hot

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

I kinda like b/f on the flop. He’s CBetting 100% of his 3bet range and we’re ahead a good portion of the time. A CR over-commits and turns your hand into a bluff and CC let’s way too many scare cards roll off imo. I realize you lose some value from the part of his range that missed, but you also have no clue where you stand when half the deck hits on the turn and he fires again.

The turn bet is just weird. Almost like he’s trying to induce a shove w/ a made hand and a psb behind. I’d liken it to a min CR and I think you’re behind here often enough to fold.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

Yeah I think flop leading is good here. He'll define his hand really well when calling, and I think will bluff raise enough to make jamming over the top fine. Nothing wrong with winning 26bb with one pair.

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

My first instinct is to either lead the flop, or crai flop, folding to 3-bet and jamming turn in the absence of a scary card.

Lots of folks like the turn crai better. I see no reason to wait until the pot is bigger on the turn to get better information from my aggression. Seems like we can represent AI commitment on the flop for a hell of a lot less money.

I would be interested in hearing other opinions about the flop v turn crai here. What do we gain by waiting until the turn?

Re: JJ OOP vs a LAG
 

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I really want to keep villain from owning me when half the deck hits the river and c/r turn all-in here. Def saying I would

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c/r flop isn't bad either, and no, it doesn't turn your hand into a bluff.