Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

I posted this hand in HS MTT, and they are really struggling with it. Solving this hand is probably a skill that cash game players are more likely to have, so let's see if any of you guys can come up with the correct explanation.

OP Here: Click me! You know you want to show up those MTTers!

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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Solving this hand is probably a skill that cash game players are more likely to have.

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That's a hint you didn't post in MTT.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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haaahahaha ha hahaaha

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

I really don't know what you're looking for with this "key." It really is a [censored] spot where I guess you just have to c/c turn and probably c/f most rivers.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

That looks like such a fold. He showed his bluff because hell never do it again. The weak voice is almost always a big hand, as is the check on the board. Gotta think if his range is TT+. hes calling your turn lead with QQ JJ rather than raising, although my guess is hed fold.

The whole meant to call thing is really stupid and could be the biggest signal to fold. While I can see AK being a possibility I still think this is a fold this early on.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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LLLLOOOOOLLLLLL

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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perfect.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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Who is that? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

i didnt read the thread but i would call

i dont think hes good enough to shove the river without AA/KK because as you said he seems straightforward.

QJ is out of his range (again cause hes straightforward), so i think he wanted to call but isnt upset that he raised, so it seems like he has AK/AA/KK, and you should call and see what he does on the river and make your decision then.

I highly suspect he would check behind AK on the river because you said he needs a bit more aggression in his game, and since he doesnt really care if he raised or called i suspect its AA KK AK, and he probably bets AA/KK and checks AK (cause you could easily have QJ) so i think i call, check and pray he checks and show down my set.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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awesome

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

Shove, he never has QJ.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i didnt read the thread but i would call

i dont think hes good enough to shove the river without AA/KK because as you said he seems straightforward.

QJ is out of his range (again cause hes straightforward), so i think he wanted to call but isnt upset that he raised, so it seems like he has AK/AA/KK, and you should call and see what he does on the river and make your decision then.

I highly suspect he would check behind AK on the river because you said he needs a bit more aggression in his game, and since he doesnt really care if he raised or called i suspect its AA KK AK, and he probably bets AA/KK and checks AK (cause you could easily have QJ) so i think i call, check and pray he checks and show down my set.

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Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

How about a bluff? I'm too tired to explain, but it feels like one. Check call river, if he has nothing that's the only way to get some money, if he picked up a funky spade draw or so on the turn, you will not be hurt too much losing the hand if he hit the river.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

i like check calling all streets

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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strongly agree.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i like check calling all streets

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i love that water shoots out the sides of the fishies mouth when he chomps

OM MON MON MON MON

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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so good wow

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i like check calling all streets

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i love that water shoots out the sides of the fishies mouth when he chomps

OM MON MON MON MON

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i took it from yvessaint once he was eliminated from the face of the earth(2+2).

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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Wow that is amazing

As for my like I would take a long long time, and act like im bluffing and min reraise.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

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Why?

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

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C/c c/c ???

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

because we're smoked a ton and its a real bad spot to put more chips in not to mention the chance he 3-bets off the best hand with his AK.. chk/call every street seems solid to me

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

Basically, with 300bb deep, and the read that he VERY likely had a monster from the pf-action/body language, how would you really feel getting 3-bet against a guy you know probably never ever bluffs in that spot, and has a range of AA,KK and AK, where you cannot at safely deduct that AA/KK 3-bets and AK calls. I would basically throw up in that spot and curse myself for checkraisng in the first place.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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Basically, with 300bb deep, and the read that he VERY likely had a monster from the pf-action/body language, how would you really feel getting 3-bet against a guy you know probably never ever bluffs in that spot, and has a range of AA,KK and AK, where you cannot at safely deduct that AA/KK 3-bets and AK calls. I would basically throw up in that spot and curse myself for checkraisng in the first place.

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This isn't a super aggressive high stakes cash game. And it's live. I'm not going broke here ever. I don't think he's 3 betting AK on this flop.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

the fact that he doesnt seem upset or even a little fazed by the floor ruling it a raise instead of a call would really worry me..if he had JJ/QQ or that type of hand that he genuinely wanted to show down cheap and not raise, i think it would show in how he handled himself there

im thinking call turn, check riv. and really consider folding if he gets crazy

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

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ya i was thinking the same thing

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

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ya i was thinking the same thing

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Completely agree. Once you get to the turn I think its a fold.... an angle seems very unlikely.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

Okay, so you have an easy fold to a 3-bet then, let's say that. Then what are you c/r:ing for? You feel comfortable in that you can c/r and get 3 streets of value out of exactly AK, this granted that he NEVER raises AK on flop, and that he ALWAYS raises AA/KK on flop so that you have perfect information and never get (unintentionally) bluffed/call of against a better hand?

I'm just not seeing the point in check/raising, the ONLY sense would be to get 3 streets of value and stack AK. Does he really go broke with that, and even if he does, can you be sure that he does that on as many cards you would consider blank enough to fire river so that he does not only stack of with AA/KK making your riverbet completely horrible?

How about if he has AQ/AJ then (very unlikely given PF and basically hands I assumed you disregarded when you said you got your suspicions verified), what kind of point is there to c/r against this range? He probably folds turn if he's the average nit, so against those hands, unless very bad calls falls off, you probably get his CB on flop, and, assuming hes the average live nit, he checks behind turn and you get a bet in on river, essentially the same or even slightly more money than you'd get by checkraising flop granted you wouldn't get called on turn. Yeah, sometimes some random backdoor 4-straight will arrive and you won't get a riverbet but then so be it, it's not a concern, especially since these hands very basically dismissed anyway.

The fact that you have narrowed down his range into basically AA, KK, AK, QQ and perhaps JJ basically makes a c/r really crappy with these stacks here; QQ/JJ he's at best bet/folding (and probably checking if he's smart but most people blindly CB anyway), and then you are left with AA, KK, AK, against which checkraising makes no sense unless you feel you can make perfect decisions, never get stacked, and get 3 streets of value against AK checkraising the flop, which seems fairly unlikely given I'd assume he'd cold-call with all these 3-hands to a checkraise very often, and if you are even slightly wrong about him always calling all 3 holdings all the way to river, the fact he you have 6 combos of AA/KK and 8 combos of AK could very fast turn your 3-street value into crap, especially since you checkraised with 3 people in the hand, and the fact that AA/KK can easier call on all 3 streets since its less vulnerable than AK and thus certain cards could scare him off, i.e running pairs for example, although I'll admit that last part is not a huge consideration. Add to the extreme thinness of such a range the fact that it is a tournament and you probably quickly end up taking an overall -EV line since doubling up is not even close worth doing on a "8 to 6 shot" at BEST with so many uncertain factors.

It's also not like you have to defend your hand 3-ways given the very dry flop, and even disregarding that, defending your hand from getting outdrawn would not really be as important as not ending up taking a line against a range as strong as AA/KK/AK where you would most likely end up losing the most when your dead and winning at least not more than you would with a more passive line when you are ahead, and effectively end your tournament 300bb deep on a slim-at-best chance to double your stack.

Just the fact that check/calling 3 streets would probably generate 3 streets of value (albeit of course not as big as if you checkraised of course) from AK easily compared to risking him only calling a turnbet after a checkraise with AA/KK, and at least definitely risking him only calling a riverbet with the hands that beat you, and you end up winning at least the same with the check/call against AK and risking winning even less if he folds to the turnbet.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

In the hope that I am not just clogging the board, this was my post..

What tilts me the most on this hand is your description of the villain. If your read is true, this is not the MO of a straightforward, not rich, probably satellited beer drinking east coaster. These guys are playing as long as they can play for and enjoying their time. You specifically said your read was 'not tricky and straightforward', both of which I think make it really difficult to pull some fake raise with the immortal nuts. I think it would have been much more clumsy and would have been silent, i.e., not make a big deal of it where his reaction needs to be exposed to everyone at the table. Often times these sort of players overvalue pretty flops vs two limpers / callers even with a hand like AK. While I don't think it is impossible for him to have AA or KK here, the reads don't add up in my mind for the whole acting job.

While I hate reading the river action, as it seems like it must be the nuts, if I leave that out I would not deduce by your description of this guy that he would make this play.

So, knowing the river, I think fold was right, but if I leave that out I don't think it is very clear and I don't think we can fold this turn. I also would check call the river. I don't really see what we've gained by the 5k lead. Maybe you can talk about this some, since I think it is interesting.

-trplthrt

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

fwiw i think i snap fold justin.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

Seriously ZJ, this is a ridiculously standard fold and no [censored] key necessary.

I don't know if this is worse than gaucho's posts.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

Was Villain scratching his nutsack?

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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haaahahaha ha hahaaha

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well done

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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i read it and now think that you and dlpnyc should have sex.

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Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

im guessing based on the fact that you described the armenian guy and that he basically did nothing in the actual hand, that somehow the "key" to this hand lies in his armenian palm.

a more logical "key" would be the fact that due to the dlp effect (the answer to the post lies in the heavily persuasive description heavily tilted towards one action) this is a clear fold becase what else does this guy raise out of BB with, check flop, and raise turn...

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

This is AA of KK. I play $50 and $100 NL and this seems to be the default line for a lot of players in this situation (ZOMG I FLOPPED A SET OF ACES ZOMG CHECK SO THEY DON'T KNOW). You said he seems better than most, but is a satellite player. If you put yourself in his shoes he's thinking 'ZOMG EARLY DOUBLE UP WITH MY AAA/KKK IM GOING TO TRAP THESE PUNKS!' He's never folding here, cause if his AAA or KKK loses 'ZOMG COOLER/BAD BEAT/AMAZING STORY TO TELL MY FRIENDS I HAVE MY AAA CRACKED IN A 10K TOURNAMENT ZOMG'.

He isn't upset on the turn when his action is determined to be a raise because 'ZOMG THIS GUY IS FIXING TO GIVE ME ALL HIS CHIPS WITH AQ OR KQ OR ZOMG HE BETTER NOT HAVE QJ BUT IM NEVER FOLDING HERE'

I still call the turn raise, because at this point I'm still thinking 'ZOMG THIS DONK HAS AK IM GOING TO STACK HIM AND IF HE HAS AA, KK, QJ, OR TT OMG I JUST GOT COOLERED POOR ME'. I can probably fold the river. I might actually make a smallish bet here with the intention of folding to a raise. You described him as straight forward, so he's calling with all worse hands and raising with most of what beats you (Maybe he flat calls the river bet with TTT?)

That all seems WAY too simple for a post from you, though.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

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a more logical "key" would be the fact that due to the dlp effect (the answer to the post lies in the heavily persuasive description heavily tilted towards one action) this is a clear fold becase what else does this guy raise out of BB with, check flop, and raise turn...

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ZJ explained that "the key" is that a turn call makes no sense for anything being way more important than the fact that he is blindingly obvious strong. Soo.. yeah.

Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)
 

the key is taht i might never fold a set in my life, and i am going to be so happy that i never did.

i folded one once when i was young and stupid, and was wrong, and i vowed to never do it again.

i'm very happy with that life decision/