WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

WCOOP ME. My image is very tight. In the past, I 3-bet light and only did that with QQ/KK/AKs/AA. They were looked up twice and I won both. My showdowns says my 3-bet range is very tight. Villain is Fischer80, CL. His pf rasing range is OK. However, I saw he folded to 3-bet 4 out of 5 times when he raises, but not sure his utg raising range.

In this hand, please tell me your decision? What his pushing range?

PokerStars Game #12372298592: Tournament #70000023, $2500+$100 Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIII (12500/25000) - 2007/10/01 - 06:05:49 (ET)
Table '70000023 330' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: jcamby33 (2175500 in chips)
Seat 2: Indigoae (334253 in chips)
Seat 3: The Cooker (330107 in chips)
Seat 4: Fischer80 (3011704 in chips)
Seat 5: straate (1062473 in chips)
Seat 6: mpg1000 (1805996 in chips)
Seat 7: sandler1860 (735000 in chips)
Seat 8: jesse42782 (144254 in chips)
Seat 9: NYWalker (711820 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NYWalker [Ad Kc]
Fischer80: raises 65000 to 90000
straate: folds
mpg1000: folds
sandler1860: folds
sihuynh [observer] said, "SRAATE IS DA BESTTT"
jesse42782: folds
NYWalker: raises 180000 to 270000
jcamby33: folds
Indigoae: folds
The Cooker: folds
Fischer80: raises 1030000 to 1300000

????

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

You're getting ~2.4-1 with AK what's the question.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

Uh srsly why are you even considering 3-bet folding AK here?

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

The odd is right, but it's very possible we are up against top 1% of his raising range. How likely he's doing that with JJ,TT,AQ,AJ,KQ?

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

If he does this with QQ then not getting all the money in is terrible. He's not folding QQ here. Get the money in.

HAVE A PLAN FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOU ARE RERAISED WHEN YOU RERAISE HIM.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The odd is right, but it's very possible we are up against top 1% of his raising range. How likely he's doing that with JJ,TT,AQ,AJ,KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]


But he needs to have exactly AA to fold this. Even KK you now have the odds to call it. I guess you can factor in some percentage like he has AA 30% of the time, AK 10%, KK 30% and a smaller pair like TT-QQ the other 20% of the time. Obviously adjust the variables, but does he really only shove AA and KK here? If you are going to argue that and you seriously only think he shoves those two, fine fold. But now the pot is so big and juicy I have to call.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he does this with QQ then not getting all the money in is terrible. He's not folding QQ here. Get the money in.

HAVE A PLAN FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOU ARE RERAISED WHEN YOU RERAISE HIM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

you have to call

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he does this with QQ then not getting all the money in is terrible. He's not folding QQ here. Get the money in.

HAVE A PLAN FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOU ARE RERAISED WHEN YOU RERAISE HIM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree.

================================================

Here is a hand I played with David Pham at the LAPC, 7 players at the $1500 Final Table, he utg raised 3BB, 2 callers, I pushed from the BB with AK (I was CL and he's 3rd CL), he told me he folded AK. This hand affected me in today's play.


My plan was exactly 3-bet and fold to a push because if he knows my 3-bet range is that tight and still pushes he gotta have AA/KK though I really hoped him have QQ. Given I still had 20BB left, I folded. I'm still debating this. (I'm pretty sure most 2+2pers call here and I don't disagree at all.)

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

he probably thinks the table is pushing him around so stick the money in

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet light and only did that with QQ/KK/AKs/AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

With 30bb you have to either flat call the initial raise or 3bet/call. Especially with his 3.6x raise.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With 30bb you have to either flat call the initial raise or 3bet/call. Especially with his 3.6x raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.. In order from best -> worst

Call
3bet/call
Fold
3bet/fold

Not sure if 3bet/folding is -EV, but it probably is.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

i think 3bet/calling is better than calling. you get him to fold a lot of hands that he should call/shove with when you 3bet, and you fold the best hand a lot on the flop when you just call.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think 3bet/calling is better than calling. you get him to fold a lot of hands that he should call/shove with when you 3bet, and you fold the best hand a lot on the flop when you just call.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this in general, with one exception. if u have chronic squeezer behind you then call>>>3 bet/call, right?

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think 3bet/calling is better than calling. you get him to fold a lot of hands that he should call/shove with when you 3bet, and you fold the best hand a lot on the flop when you just call.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this in general, with one exception. if u have chronic squeezer behind you then call>>>3 bet/call, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

gp, yes def

with how the tournament was playing (aggressive), thats why I said call > 3bc

I wasn't paying too much attention though and could easily be wrong about the overally aggression

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

yeah but people arent real into squeezing utg raises at 9handed tables in my experience

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah but people arent real into squeezing utg raises at 9handed tables in my experience

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.launchpoker.com/wsop/wsop...ta_187x269.jpg

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

3bet, call a shove. People don't squeeze nearly as much as you think they do, adam.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
he probably thinks the table is pushing him around so stick the money in

[/ QUOTE ]

Due to stacksize, pf calling and pf shoving are both bad.

I'm posting the last 20 hands in pokerXfactor, please pay attention to hand 685 see how villain played AKo pf, also see his raising size, he raises 90K and 80K, the last hand he raises 80K with AQo.

Hand History Analyzer Version: http://www.pokerxfactor.com/HA87355/...01_183353/4167

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

If he has AA, why not he just flat calls and waits for me to shove the flop? Obviously I'm committed on the flop.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

because he plays bad, who cares

this hand is easier than you are making it out to be

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

gimme your cards ill call for you

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

gimme that one ace you have ill call for you

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Due to stacksize, pf calling and pf shoving are both bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. I think pf shove is OK with AK if the pot is greater than 20% of your remaining stack. And calling pre-flop is much better than what you did.

I was flicking through the HH on PXF before reading this thread and my reaction on seeing the 3-bet/fold was WTF ? There's just no way you can pass here, it's not even debateable IMO.

Edit : I also don't think the Pham hand is in any way relevant. He's got to worry about playing AK all-in 3-handed which is extremely unlikely here.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

What's our calling range in #697?

Oh, and FWIW, I think Indigoae had a much tougher decision in #703. I'd been sweating you for a while and when you made the small raise, I put you on KK+ eactly.

As for the hand in question, you have an unorthodox style, with a great premium on hand-reading, but there is simply no way to justify a three-bet fold here against this guy, with these stacks, in that spot. The way he played AK previously is irrelevant. THat was agaisnt a nit UTG raiser from BB. He's reshoving TT+, AK here always and possibly wider. Players like Sandler are why.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

in this hand i think your chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With 30bb you should have flat called the initial raise not 3bet/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With 30bb you should not have flat called the initial raise not not 3bet/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. I think pf shove is OK with AK if the pot is greater than 20% of your remaining stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually shove, 3-bet is close. If I have 20-25BB when starting the hand, I shove.



[ QUOTE ]

And calling pre-flop is much better than what you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

... 30BB post flop? (I'm still thinking about it)

[ QUOTE ]

I was flicking through the HH on PXF before reading this thread and my reaction on seeing the 3-bet/fold was WTF ? There's just no way you can pass here, it's not even debateable IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, half of my brain thinks the same WTF.
AK 30BB is perfect for 3-bet with 10BB and call a shove with 20BB. There is NO execuse to pass this from math point of view.

Why I fold???
When I 3-bet, I really trust villain can fold JJ or worse. I believe he's good enough to know I'm not folding to a shove. Therefore, when he comes along, I have to put him on AKs/QQ/KK/AA.

Next time, ..... [censored] .... I probably call and see KK.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

You're mathematically committed against a range of QQ+ and AK. Do you not see this?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 78295380 89232168.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 174740892 89232168.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why I fold???
When I 3-bet, I really trust villain can fold JJ or worse. I believe he's good enough to know I'm not folding to a shove. Therefore, when he comes along, I have to put him on AKs/QQ/KK/AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

even if this were true you are getting the right odds. folding SUCKS

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and FWIW, I think Indigoae had a much tougher decision in #703. I'd been sweating you for a while and when you made the small raise, I put you on KK+ eactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was surprised to see AKs instead of QQ/AA. UTG raised, he should know his Ace isn't live. I actually had a close decision between 3-bet and shove, 3-bet exposed my hand.

[ QUOTE ]

He's reshoving TT+, AK here always and possibly wider.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? After all my showdowns, he still put me on TT- or AQ?

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're mathematically committed against a range of QQ+ and AK. Do you not see this?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 78295380 89232168.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 174740892 89232168.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it. Please don't get me wrong. That's why my half brain keeps blaming me. The other half keeps thinking other factors...

You see I came back from 9BB. So, 20BB is a lot for me given the tournament structure. At best, I'm seeing QQ, and risk a flip with all my chips .... I know folding is stupid but I just believe he has what he must have to shove.

(btw, people think I'm nit and capable of folding big hands, so when they bluff, they lose all their chips to me.)

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw, people think I'm nit and capable of folding big hands, so when they bluff, they lose all their chips to me

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a bit drunk but do you really think this level of thinking is going on online ? Even in the $2500 ? I don't play that high online I'm the first to admit but I play high enough and I really don't think that people see enough hands against you / are paying enough attention to be thinking this deep on an individual basis. This kind of analysis might be OK live but online ... you're out-thinking yourself IMO.

Edit : and more to the point, if you believe this, doesn't it make a call even more definite ?

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? After all my showdowns, he still put me on TT- or AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

He puts you on a big hand. He has a big hand. His UTG 3-betting range, given his stack and your tight image, is TT+, AK, IMO, and I was sweating for about the previous 30 hands as it happens. Take out TT if you wish but he's never raise-folding JJ there.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're out-thinking yourself IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I am out-thinking myself. That's the big leak in my game. I really need to balance it.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? After all my showdowns, he still put me on TT- or AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

He puts you on a big hand. He has a big hand. His UTG 3-betting range, given his stack and your tight image, is TT+, AK, IMO, and I was sweating for about the previous 30 hands as it happens. Take out TT if you wish but he's never raise-folding JJ there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Today, after viewing all his hands since I moved to this table, I believe he's not folding JJ.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
in this hand i think your chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation

[/ QUOTE ]

Not it's not. It's pre-flop.

Re: WCOOP AKo 3-bet utg and get pushed back, your play?
 

3bet folding is atrocious
edit: I hate to be so harsh but seriously if you asked me what hte worst possible line you could take here I would say 3bet fold.