poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

Saturday afternoon, Tampa Hard Rock....

$1-$2 no limit
about 4 hours into the session, table's been straddling about 60%-70% of all hands, 4 callers to me in the big blind. i raise to $24 with QcQh, UTG and Button call.

flop comes QdKhTd, i lead for $80, UTG pushes for about $140 total, Button pushes for about $240 total.

UTG is down around $500 since i've been at the table, Button has only been at the table around an hour, hasn't done anything crazy.

i ask the dealer if i can show my hand without it being dead, he says i can but it's in poor taste. i show anyway, Button (maybe he thinks i've already called?) says, "f*ck, i only got two pair" and i call. dealer proceeds to lecture me on my "poor etiquette" while dealing out the next hand, and i just kinda let it go. just wanted to know what you guys think about it. thanks.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

Since your the last to act and there wouldn't be any more action on the turn or river, I don't think this a terrible angle. (Although it may vary from individual cardroom to cardroom whether showing one or both hole cards are legal).

I think that the dealer should have told you the house rules without the moral commentary.

I think that button could have been confused/drunk/stupid in revealing his hand. However, he could have easily been lying and holding AJ, enticing you to call.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

they way he responded he definitely didn't hold AJ, which is all i was worried about. but the outcome of the hand isn't what i was asking about. i asked the dealer the rules before showing, he said it was legal, just wanted to know if it was a douche move or not. i was looking to illicit some response, and got one from showing.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

w/e just call next time w/o showing

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

The dealer should not be telling any player whats in poor taste or not.

Lecturing players is not his job either.

The dealer has a long road ahead of him cleaning up the poker world and doing so will be less profitable for him cause I sure wouldnt tip him after that.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

Without getting on my soapbox....why are you showing your hand? The dealer needs to tell you it's not proper etiquette? I am going to go out on a limb and say you knew the answer before you asked the question...and did it anyway.
Kinda surprised at the responses of "the dealer should'nt say anything"....true....but what kind of move is it to show your cards?

IMO...the answer to your original question
yes..poor etiquette, yes...dealer's an idiot...yes...the guy's an idiot.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

You asked, it wasn't against the house rules, so really "etiquette" doesn't apply.

You illicited a tell using a means which you confirmed were legal at that table.

Other player should have simply said nothing.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

Daniel Negreanu is a big fan of showing one card as a means of getting a tell. I tend to agree. Part of poker is the psychology and messing with people's heads. 1) It does depend on the casino and house rules. 2) The dealer should only call the action, deal the cards and explain the rules.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

Under the heading of I'm sure you already know, but...
showing a card(s) in a tournament will get you a warning first offense, time-out after that.

I have to admit...I am a little different than some others, I have my own views. Like.....
I think if you are in a hand with someone you must stay at the table, seated. Suddenly every person on TV makes a huge bet and walks away. What happened to being able to stare someone down. What was better than Moneymaker making a huge bluff against Farha and sitting there like a stone. What would it have been like if he made the bet and walked away.

I know I am off topic......sorry!

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

not a tournament, and never moved from my seat. reading comprehension, ftw. i asked first, dealer says it's allowed, i had both players covered, with no one left to act behind me so i'm not influencing anyone else's decision. i'm thinking it's totally fine, and wouldn't bother me in the slightest if someone else at the table does the same thing. i gave the button the opportunity to let me know how he felt about my hand, and he did. i really don't think it's even remotely close to an angle shot, or poor etiquette, and was suprised by the dealer thinking it was. just posted to see if i was in the minority or not.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

In this case the dealer is a bad judge of what is good etiquette. If someone asks one of my dealers if they can do something and the dealer tells them it is in poor taste to do so and they chose to do it anyway I will be showing them to the door because poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

I understand it wasn't a tournament (just saying in some areas of poker it is not allowed....that must tell us something about the move)....and I understand you didn't move from your seat (that was a side rant)....
IMO...you took a shot. Period. Etiquette, Shmeitiqutte. You took advantage of the "technically I'm right rule". If you were so sure you would not have posted this in the first place.
Do you want to hear you are technically right? OK, you are technically right. Still not appreciated by most players.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

It's not like u were slowrolling AJs and flopped a royal. If it's not against house rules to attempt to help yourself to get on an edge on your two opponents, i would've done the same thing.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

I'm being out numbered by players who want to show their cards before the action is completed. I feel like I am in poker hell (aka Tunica, MS)!

You guys have beat me down....I will start showing my cards whenever I can!

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this case the dealer is a bad judge of what is good etiquette. If someone asks one of my dealers if they can do something and the dealer tells them it is in poor taste to do so and they chose to do it anyway I will be showing them to the door because poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow that one Randy? It seems that you made one point and then contradicted it. Or it could be my belly is full from a good lunch and I'm having a post-appetite moment? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

exactly what i was thinking about RR's post. didn't know who you meant to be in the wrong. starts one way, ends another.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]


This last statement is so patently untrue that I couldn't let it stand without commentary. Poker is a game played by people with money, nothing else. If you are escorting people from your casino for poor taste I imagine you must get really lonely.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

OP, it does seem an odd thing to do in what was presumably an auto-call situation. Are you seriously telling us that there was some potential tell that would have made you lay it down?

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

in the end, i'm probably making this call anyway. just a sick spot (for me maybe cuz i'm a nit like that). button more or less insta-pushed over UTG's push. i was hoping to get some response from the button alone as i knew i was way ahead of UTG from the previous four hours play.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]


This last statement is so patently untrue that I couldn't let it stand without commentary. Poker is a game played by people with money, nothing else. If you are escorting people from your casino for poor taste I imagine you must get really lonely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are undoubetdly one of those ogres I find in poker rooms who think that you can use foul language and pick your toes at the table.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this case the dealer is a bad judge of what is good etiquette. If someone asks one of my dealers if they can do something and the dealer tells them it is in poor taste to do so and they chose to do it anyway I will be showing them to the door because poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow that one Randy? It seems that you made one point and then contradicted it. Or it could be my belly is full from a good lunch and I'm having a post-appetite moment? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

In this particular case the dealer used poor judgment.

In generally if you ask the dealer if you can do something and they tell you it is in poor taste and you choose to do it anyway you might not be able to continue playing in the casino

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]


This last statement is so patently untrue that I couldn't let it stand without commentary. Poker is a game played by people with money, nothing else. If you are escorting people from your casino for poor taste I imagine you must get really lonely.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is in the introduction of almost every set of rules I have seen and is generally on the wall of the poker room. Something along the lines of "all players are expected to conduct themselves in a manner befitting ladies and gentlemen." If you are unable to conduct yourself as a gentleman you will soon find yourself leaving my casino.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]


This last statement is so patently untrue that I couldn't let it stand without commentary. Poker is a game played by people with money, nothing else. If you are escorting people from your casino for poor taste I imagine you must get really lonely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are undoubetdly one of those ogres I find in poker rooms who think that you can use foul language and pick your toes at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehnnnn...wrong. I'm quiet and respectful at the poker table. However, I'd much rather play with 9 foul, annoying, wastes of life who have a lot of money and suck at poker than 9 really nice sharks.

Beyond that, the reality is poker is NOT a game played by ladies and gentleman....

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

I suggest everyone line up so I can kick 'em all in the nuts.

Al

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this case the dealer is a bad judge of what is good etiquette. If someone asks one of my dealers if they can do something and the dealer tells them it is in poor taste to do so and they chose to do it anyway I will be showing them to the door because poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow that one Randy? It seems that you made one point and then contradicted it. Or it could be my belly is full from a good lunch and I'm having a post-appetite moment? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

In this particular case the dealer used poor judgment.

In generally if you ask the dealer if you can do something and they tell you it is in poor taste and you choose to do it anyway you might not be able to continue playing in the casino

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you are agreeing with the consensus here that the dealer in OP's post was wrong about his move being poor etiquette. But if the dealer had been correct in a different casino and he chose to do it anyways you'd ask him to leave? Did I get that right?

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is a game played by ladies and gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]


This last statement is so patently untrue that I couldn't let it stand without commentary. Poker is a game played by people with money, nothing else. If you are escorting people from your casino for poor taste I imagine you must get really lonely.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is in the introduction of almost every set of rules I have seen and is generally on the wall of the poker room. Something along the lines of "all players are expected to conduct themselves in a manner befitting ladies and gentlemen." If you are unable to conduct yourself as a gentleman you will soon find yourself leaving my casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

After a couple of decades I honestly don't know what being a good gentleman means in the context of playing a ring game in a casino. Am I not being a gentleman if I don't stand up when a lady comes to the table? Just 40 years ago in some parts of the US that would be considered highly offensive and ungentlemanly.

What if I check raise my opponent? As short as a decade ago in some low limit and low ball games that would have been a major breach of etiquette.

It seems to me that as long as I am acting as the rest of the table is - if they are quiet then so am I or if they are loud and boisterous then I will join in too - and following the rules of the game and not trying to angle shoot anyone then I should be allowed to make any legal moves without worrying about being challenged to a dual at sunrise.

I kind of resent casino's trying to reign in aggressive players who are playing within the rules. It's our money and as long as they get their drop they should stop trying to act like Miss Manners.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

I get tired of people pretending poker is a gentleman's game. Tired of people talking about so called morals at a poker table. Everyone at the table is either ruthless and calculating, or trying their best to be ruthless and calculating. It's dog eat dog. I wanna take the last of your mortgage payments. I want your children to not eat properly this week.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get tired of people pretending poker is a gentleman's game. Tired of people talking about so called morals at a poker table. Everyone at the table is either ruthless and calculating, or trying their best to be ruthless and calculating. It's dog eat dog. I wanna take the last of your mortgage payments. I want your children to not eat properly this week.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean you can't at least be an honorable and respectful player. The types who think only in terms of money and not in terms of class are the ones who make everybody on the OUTSIDE think that poker players are all a bunch of degenerate, classless gamblers.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of resent casino's trying to reign in aggressive players who are playing within the rules. It's our money and as long as they get their drop they should stop trying to act like Miss Manners.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and no. They also need to protect future rake by not having some jackasses piss off everybody else.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get tired of people pretending poker is a gentleman's game. Tired of people talking about so called morals at a poker table. Everyone at the table is either ruthless and calculating, or trying their best to be ruthless and calculating. It's dog eat dog. I wanna take the last of your mortgage payments. I want your children to not eat properly this week.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean you can't at least be an honorable and respectful player. The types who think only in terms of money and not in terms of class are the ones who make everybody on the OUTSIDE think that poker players are all a bunch of degenerate, classless gamblers.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true for the most part. I hate my fellow players. I just wanna destroy them.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of resent casino's trying to reign in aggressive players who are playing within the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats fine, but it is against the rules in my room for you to use profane language, berate other players. agree players shouldn't be penalized for minor infractions of general ettiquette (though for the life of me I don't understand why so many people can't say please and thank you to the cocktail waitress). But the idea that anything goes at the poker table is not acceptable. The idea that we can't regulate condict in order to make the room a better place for all players (not just the ones who aren't offended by profanity) makes no sense to me.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

I never understood why so many people act like a poker room is a free-for-all where they can do or say whatever they want. There aren't children present so it's not like you have to act like you're in church or something.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

I only have one rule in my home games and it's this:

#1: Don't be an a-hole.

Really, it's not that difficult a concept.

Trust me, the reserved quiet people with money and the loud fun boistrous but generally agreeable action junkies with money far far FAR outnumber the jerks with money, who tend to slow things down enough to make their dollars worth half as much as anybody else.

Don't be an a-hole, it's a good rule for life.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get tired of people pretending poker is a gentleman's game. Tired of people talking about so called morals at a poker table. Everyone at the table is either ruthless and calculating, or trying their best to be ruthless and calculating. It's dog eat dog. I wanna take the last of your mortgage payments. I want your children to not eat properly this week.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponents can't make their mortgage payments and feed their kids, how on earth do you expect them to keep coming back and donating to your game in the future?


q/q

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

With all the money in the pot you need 23% equity to make the call. If the button has AdJd you have 30.5% equity which means calling is profitable for you. So, the only hand you should fold against is a set of Kings. Nothing you do will convince you he has a set of Kings, except possibly him showing you a set of Kings.

You are holding up the game when there is really no chance you will fold. Those who recognize there is no way you'll fold will be annoyed with you. The other two players will feel like they are being slow rolled. Please save the theatrics for occasions when it might influence your decision.

Thank You.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are holding up the game when there is really no chance you will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get tired of people pretending poker is a gentleman's game. Tired of people talking about so called morals at a poker table. Everyone at the table is either ruthless and calculating, or trying their best to be ruthless and calculating. It's dog eat dog. I wanna take the last of your mortgage payments. I want your children to not eat properly this week.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. You seem to be a pretty angry guy. But if you really feel this way, why don't you just hold them up in the parking lot? Or are you going to tell me you would if it wasn't for the risk of getting caught?

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get tired of people pretending poker is a gentleman's game. Tired of people talking about so called morals at a poker table. Everyone at the table is either ruthless and calculating, or trying their best to be ruthless and calculating. It's dog eat dog. I wanna take the last of your mortgage payments. I want your children to not eat properly this week.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. You seem to be a pretty angry guy. But if you really feel this way, why don't you just hold them up in the parking lot? Or are you going to tell me you would if it wasn't for the risk of getting caught?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually with the guy that says he wants to take all their money. If the money is on the table, even if it's your grandma's medicine money, you should be trying to check-raise her out of it. It's fine to be polite to your opponents, but really you need to think of them as the enemy, and do whatever you can within the rules to get the money.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually with the guy that says he wants to take all their money. If the money is on the table, even if it's your grandma's medicine money, you should be trying to check-raise her out of it. It's fine to be polite to your opponents, but really you need to think of them as the enemy, and do whatever you can within the rules to get the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so hard for people to get about this issue? I'm not advocating soft-playing anyone. My point is simply that you can play as aggressively as you like within the rules and spirit of the game, but that you shouldn't allow this to blur the line between the game of poker and the general business of being a person.

"Don't be an a-hole" is an excellent summary indeed.

Re: poor etiquette, dealer\'s an idiot or that guy\'s an idiot?
 

Obviously if you're asking him if it's within the rules in the first place, YOU dont think it's bad etiquette. Is he trying to tell us that others at the table think it's bad etiquette, or that he would personally be offended by it? Is there any particular reason why we should care what he thinks is bad etiquette?

Well who the [censored] cares. Ive played with people who think check/raising is bad etiquette. Ive played with people who think raising preflop without a good hand is bad etiquette. Ive seen dealers who think it's bad etiquette to tip only $1 or $2 on a big hand. Thank god I'm not obligated to make nice-nice with these retards.

Ill be polite to them, but being polite doesnt come out of my pocket. But if they expect me to sacrifice my own money just to satisfy some weird sense of ethics that they invented in their heads, it sure as [censored] isnt happening.

The whole reason we define and write down rules is to prevent subjective interpretation of what one should or should not do.