NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

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Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
4 players
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Stack sizes:
UTG: $199
Button: $368.95
SB: $200.40
Hero: $229.35

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with QQ
UTG raises to $8, Button raises to $28, SB calls, Hero ?

SB is basically a megafish, so I'm pretty sure I crush his range, Button and UTG are fairly unknown, what do you do in this spot, squeese? or maybe just take the safer route and fold? <font color="red"> </font>

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

this is 4 handed so id go all in

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

I probably call here for set value, this could be a leak for me. I don't see the point in 4betting because I can't see anything worse calling. I don't mind a fold either. I'd be interested to see what others think.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

I´d repop this any day with SB´s deadmoney in the pot.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

The thing is I can't call for only set value with these stacks, and yea the SB money I is dead money 90% of the time here..

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

I get it in.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

Didn't see that it was 4 handed...I like the shove now. Probably get looked up with AK and JJ+ here.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

Don't risk the flop not hitting and push. Your push gives you a really good shot at (1) taking the $64 in the pot now (a hefty sum), and (2) winning more if someone calls.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

I just think in my head "lololol wtf" and shove.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

is a 'hefty sum' more or less than a 'cool million'?

also i shove as played

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

Re-pot or fold. This all depends on your read on your opponents as well as your aversion to variance.

Although, I'd be surprised to see TT, JJ or AQ look you up.

Calling is bad, bad, bad. What happens when UTG shoves? Or what happens when UTG overcalls and the flop come 9-high? Good luck making the correct decision these spots.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just think in my head "lololol wtf" and shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, almost my exact thought.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

6-handed: fold
4-handed: push

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
6-handed: push
4-handed: push

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously

theres so much dead money you can't fold here.

i also think this is a great time for something like a 2.5x raise

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Re-pot or fold. This all depends on your read on your opponents as well as your aversion to variance.

Although, I'd be surprised to see TT, JJ or AQ look you up.

Calling is bad, bad, bad. What happens when UTG shoves? Or what happens when UTG overcalls and the flop come 9-high? Good luck making the correct decision these spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I agree with this 100%, but you can't just reply "re-pot or fold depending on reads". He said he thinks SB's money is dead 90% of the time and the other two guys are unknown. These are his reads. What do you suggest?

Personally I shove for the following reasons

1. Read on the SB
2. 4 handed game, open raise and re-raise standards are low
3. 3bet came from the BTN

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

GRUNCH:

I don't mind a push right here. 4 handed the BTN is squeezing a large enough range to make a push +EV IMO

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

seriously, the more i think about it, the more i like a minraise

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6-handed: push
4-handed: push

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously

theres so much dead money you can't fold here.

i also think this is a great time for something like a 2.5x raise

[/ QUOTE ]

4 handed I agree.

6 handed I don't agree, I'd fold it for the following reasons

1. UTG raise 6 handed is relatively tight range, if I get a call its a big hand.
2. BTN 3bet vs UTG raise is an even tighter range for an unknown.
3. Huge [censored] variance. I can wait for a better spot, with hopefully some reads on the two unknowns.

A x2.5 raise commits you so you are going all-in no matter what happens afterwards. I prefer a shove here as it makes out hand look weaker than it is.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
seriously, the more i think about it, the more i like a minraise

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? I think I am missing something here, what does minraising achieve? You know that some donk (probably the SB) is just going to just call again with his ATs ...

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

dude, its a CO raise 6 handed, not UTG

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seriously, the more i think about it, the more i like a minraise

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? I think I am missing something here, what does minraising achieve? You know that some donk (probably the SB) is just going to just call again with his ATs ...

[/ QUOTE ]

IS THIS A BAD THING?

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A x2.5 raise commits you so you are going all-in no matter what happens afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]
obv
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer a shove here as it makes out hand look weaker than it is.

[/ QUOTE ]
donk calls the 2.5x raise pretty much all the time

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
seriously, the more i think about it, the more i like a minraise

[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt TT would be putting much more money in post flop anyway. I doubt AQ will push over you, i really cant see the advantage to a minraise

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

As I was thinking about this hand, I was thinking what a miniraise or a raise to like 66 would look like, but in my experience just shoving gets looked up as often if not more.

If he's cold calling ATs out of the sb he's probably going to convince himself to call a shove.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

i think the 2.5x is optimal actually...

the donk in this hand is the most important factor in this hand... i certainly wouldn't be playing it this way against two good players

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

oh, missed the donk, he'll call alot anway. dont shove, he probably wont call that he wants to see a flop with his sc or whatever

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude, its a CO raise 6 handed, not UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the scenario I assumed was, the exact same betting from the same positions, but with MPs folding. Fair enough, in the case of an original raise from the CO rather than UTG, even 6 handed I would not fold either.

I still think a min raise is not a good move. Why should I let a donk hit his ace for cheap? Unless you are saying that you fold on an A high flop ...

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dude, its a CO raise 6 handed, not UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the scenario I assumed was, the exact same betting from the same positions, but with MPs folding. Fair enough, in the case of an original raise from the CO rather than UTG, even 6 handed I would not fold either.

I still think a min raise is not a good move. Why should I let a donk hit his ace for cheap? Unless you are saying that you fold on an A high flop ...

[/ QUOTE ]

: puts head in hands :

if he isn't calling a push and is calling a 2.5x raise i'll let him try to hit his A high flop all day long

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think the 2.5x is optimal actually...

[/ QUOTE ]

With KK or AA I can't argue with that. With QQ, I push now hoping to appear weaker than I am.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

why am i hearing that a cold 4bet push looks weak?

the donk is going to call if he thinks he has "odds", I have no problem giving him that illusion

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dude, its a CO raise 6 handed, not UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the scenario I assumed was, the exact same betting from the same positions, but with MPs folding. Fair enough, in the case of an original raise from the CO rather than UTG, even 6 handed I would not fold either.

I still think a min raise is not a good move. Why should I let a donk hit his ace for cheap? Unless you are saying that you fold on an A high flop ...

[/ QUOTE ]

: puts head in hands :

if he isn't calling a push and is calling a 2.5x raise i'll let him try to hit his A high flop all day long

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I said minraise not x2.5 ... we are misunderstanding each other a lot

I'm happy with x2.5 raise, but I'd still prefer to shove.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why am i hearing that a cold 4bet push looks weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point. I don't really know the answer but fish tend to "put you on AK" every time you 4bet a pot. I've had people call me down with 66, 77, TT, even 22 etc. in 4bet pots before.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

fousekis, he likely has a hand that wants to see a flop before comitting all his chips, like JT or 99 or something, let him. It's that simple really. A small 4b looks insanely strong here anyway, moreso then a push probably, but that's not the point. He doesn't think about it like that.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

Yes, I'm happy with either a shove or a x2.5 raise. The only thing I'm not happy with is the minraise.

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

the problem is we are giving the button great odds to call with marginal hands, as he'll realize SB will come along anyway

Re: NL200, QQ, what to do preflop?
 

I probably go $75