77 against a steal
 

Hey everyone, thanks for the help. Still trying to get my bearings on a move from full ring.

Villian is 40/21/1.32 over 162 hands.

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero?

Re: 77 against a steal
 

Id call down. Tons of draws + potential for shenanigans on his part. Also, Is preflop standard for everyone? Its always close between 3 bet and call for me and I never know which is better.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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Also, Is preflop standard for everyone? Its always close between 3 bet and call for me and I never know which is better.

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Against a guy with a pfr of 21 who's opening from the button, I think it's closer to a 3-bet than a call.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

button raises puts you in the big blind here with 77 right? I dont care if the guys pfr% is 21 this is not a 3 bet out of the big blind, then having to play the hand OOP.

You should be looking more at his attempt to steal here I think, and then getting a range. Givin his 1.32 aggression factor though, it is much more likely that he hit this flop then is raising a draw.

If you are against his range of only 21% (as described as being important above) then your equity is only 44% on this flop. I could easily find a fold button here, and if I do call his raise, I'm folding most turns to another bet. 1.32 AF is simply too light to put this guy on a draw if he fires flop and turn.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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button raises puts you in the big blind here with 77 right? I dont care if the guys pfr% is 21 this is not a 3 bet out of the big blind, then having to play the hand OOP.

You should be looking more at his attempt to steal here I think, and then getting a range. Givin his 1.32 aggression factor though, it is much more likely that he hit this flop then is raising a draw.

If you are against his range of only 21% (as described as being important above) then your equity is only 44% on this flop. I could easily find a fold button here, and if I do call his raise, I'm folding most turns to another bet. 1.32 AF is simply too light to put this guy on a draw if he fires flop and turn.

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1.32 is aggressive from this guy. He has a VPIP of 40. For all you know, he could be 3 on the flop as well. This board is too coordinated to just give up on the flop. If the turn came the Jh, then I would consider giving up. In a blind defense though I'm not giving up easily.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

I actually like to call with 55-77 here preflop and ch/r most flops. As played, I prolly call down, folding to maybe a J on the turn.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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I actually like to call with 55-77 here preflop and ch/r most flops. As played, I prolly call down, folding to maybe a J on the turn.

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+1

Re: 77 against a steal
 

I should have included his attempt to steal % because i'm pretty sure I checked it at the time, I usually do. It's 40% which makes me better than 55/45 against his range. I have an equity advantage down to 55 here.

Interesting idea about calling and c/r most flops, usually don't take that line but it sounds good. Don't you think they're is something to be said for getting your money in pf where you have a better idea that you're ahead? Alot of flops make 77 a dubious holding.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

Even though 77 and say ATo are similar hands, value wise here, ATo plays so much cleaner on most flops that I'm more inclined to try and build a pot with it.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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button raises puts you in the big blind here with 77 right? I dont care if the guys pfr% is 21 this is not a 3 bet out of the big blind, then having to play the hand OOP.

You should be looking more at his attempt to steal here I think, and then getting a range. Givin his 1.32 aggression factor though, it is much more likely that he hit this flop then is raising a draw.

If you are against his range of only 21% (as described as being important above) then your equity is only 44% on this flop. I could easily find a fold button here, and if I do call his raise, I'm folding most turns to another bet. 1.32 AF is simply too light to put this guy on a draw if he fires flop and turn.

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Hey Stretch nice to see you posting. Since youre one of the best players on AP, it would be nice to see some more 2+2 action from you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My thoughts on this situation. Do we have an equity edge preflop? Obviously yes. Does that mean we should 3bet preflop? No, not at all. Am I against 3betting? No, not at all. Since we will almost always have an edge preflop, my decision on whether I 3bet or not preflop is almost solely dependent on how my opponent plays postflop.

For example: Lets look at the spot the hero is in right now. If this is an easy fold or a very easy +EV calldown then I like 3betting preflop. If this is a very tough situation for the hero to handle either becuz the hero lacks vital information or becuz the villain plays well postflop, then I like a call preflop.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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button raises puts you in the big blind here with 77 right? I dont care if the guys pfr% is 21 this is not a 3 bet out of the big blind, then having to play the hand OOP.

You should be looking more at his attempt to steal here I think, and then getting a range. Givin his 1.32 aggression factor though, it is much more likely that he hit this flop then is raising a draw.

If you are against his range of only 21% (as described as being important above) then your equity is only 44% on this flop. I could easily find a fold button here, and if I do call his raise, I'm folding most turns to another bet. 1.32 AF is simply too light to put this guy on a draw if he fires flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Stretch nice to see you posting. Since youre one of the best players on AP, it would be nice to see some more 2+2 action from you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My thoughts on this situation. Do we have an equity edge preflop? Obviously yes. Does that mean we should 3bet preflop? No, not at all. Am I against 3betting? No, not at all. Since we will almost always have an edge preflop, my decision on whether I 3bet or not preflop is almost solely dependent on how my opponent plays postflop.

For example: Lets look at the spot the hero is in right now. If this is an easy fold or a very easy +EV calldown then I like 3betting preflop. If this is a very tough situation for the hero to handle either becuz the hero lacks vital information or becuz the villain plays well postflop, then I like a call preflop.

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wow, how do his nuts taste?


I don't think you can fold against this guy. PF is fine against this guys range. It's not like you have 22 here.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

stretchmcgee loaned me $3k to get me back on my feets. i paid that guy 100% apr over 4 months! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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PF is fine against this guys range. you have 22 here.

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Preflop is gonna be fine against almost anybody's range in this spot. This much was figured out like 30 years ago. That's why the decision of whether to 3bet preflop or not should not be based soley on this guy's range. If that was the case, it would be 3bet always. Your statement is the same as saying "3betting with AA is fine against this guy's range." zzzzzz.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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PF is fine against this guys range. you have 22 here.

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Preflop is gonna be fine against almost anybody's range in this spot. This much was figured out like 30 years ago. That's why the decision of whether to 3bet preflop or not should not be based soley on this guy's range. If that was the case, it would be 3bet always. Your statement is the same as saying "3betting with AA is fine against this guy's range." zzzzzz.

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Because 77 and AA play exactly the same post-flop.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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PF is fine against this guys range. you have 22 here.

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Preflop is gonna be fine against almost anybody's range in this spot. This much was figured out like 30 years ago. That's why the decision of whether to 3bet preflop or not should not be based soley on this guy's range. If that was the case, it would be 3bet always. Your statement is the same as saying "3betting with AA is fine against this guy's range." zzzzzz.

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ILP, you are one of the best players on AP, so glad to see you posting again.

Wait a minute, I don't think you play enough hands/month to qualify. Do you even get in the VIP tournaments anymore? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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PF is fine against this guys range. you have 22 here.

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Preflop is gonna be fine against almost anybody's range in this spot. This much was figured out like 30 years ago. That's why the decision of whether to 3bet preflop or not should not be based soley on this guy's range. If that was the case, it would be 3bet always. Your statement is the same as saying "3betting with AA is fine against this guy's range." zzzzzz.

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Because 77 and AA play exactly the same post-flop.

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Im confused. Are you being facetious, sarcastic or are you trying to convey some cryptic point?

Re: 77 against a steal
 

I was going to ask you the same thing since it's nothing like saying you should raise AA here.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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PF is fine against this guys range. you have 22 here.

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Preflop is gonna be fine against almost anybody's range in this spot. This much was figured out like 30 years ago. That's why the decision of whether to 3bet preflop or not should not be based soley on this guy's range. If that was the case, it would be 3bet always. Your statement is the same as saying "3betting with AA is fine against this guy's range." zzzzzz.

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Because 77 and AA play exactly the same post-flop.

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Im confused. Are you being facetious, sarcastic or are you trying to convey some cryptic point?

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i bet you $5 you don't even know what all those words mean

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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I was going to ask you the same thing since it's nothing like saying you should raise AA here.

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That's my point exactly. That's why TheHip's logic is flawed. I was nitpicking here cuz I was looking for a reason to rip on thehip.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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I was going to ask you the same thing since it's nothing like saying you should raise AA here.

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That's my point exactly. That's why TheHip's logic is flawed. I was nitpicking here cuz I was looking for a reason to rip on thehip.

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dont want to go with the old standby, I have a g/f, I play 25-50, I'm skinny today?

Re: 77 against a steal
 

AP must do funny things to your mind (I mean, aside from revealing your hole cards to random donks) because I have no clue as to what happened here...

Re: 77 against a steal
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I was going to ask you the same thing since it's nothing like saying you should raise AA here.

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That's my point exactly. That's why TheHip's logic is flawed. I was nitpicking here cuz I was looking for a reason to rip on thehip.

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dont want to go with the old standby, I have a g/f, I play 25-50, I'm skinny today?

[/ QUOTE ]

If youre feeling depressed right now, this should cheer you up.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=275_1190800481

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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I was going to ask you the same thing since it's nothing like saying you should raise AA here.

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That's my point exactly. That's why TheHip's logic is flawed. I was nitpicking here cuz I was looking for a reason to rip on thehip.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont want to go with the old standby, I have a g/f, I play 25-50, I'm skinny today?

[/ QUOTE ]

If youre feeling depressed right now, this should cheer you up.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=275_1190800481

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought this was going to be porn. wtf dude. and i'm not depressed. things are good. haven't played poker in 15 days, bought halo 3, roomies are gone for 3 days. good times.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I was going to ask you the same thing since it's nothing like saying you should raise AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my point exactly. That's why TheHip's logic is flawed. I was nitpicking here cuz I was looking for a reason to rip on thehip.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont want to go with the old standby, I have a g/f, I play 25-50, I'm skinny today?

[/ QUOTE ]

If youre feeling depressed right now, this should cheer you up.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=275_1190800481

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought this was going to be porn. wtf dude. and i'm not depressed. things are good. haven't played poker in 15 days, bought halo 3, roomies are gone for 3 days. good times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! Youre tellin me that you didnt feel happy that you werent in that guy's situation? Next time Im on a 300BB downswing, I'll think of that guy and I'll feel better real quickly.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

Dont hate me for trying to put this discussion back on track [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

@OP

Preflop is close. And you should listen to ILP and others here.

Its close for me with 66-88 here. I will always 3-bet 99+ and almost always call 55-. 66-88 depends. Your eq is closer to 50% so you have less eq edge to push.

So you need to consider how your preflop play affect dynamics.

Say you have ATo or A5o. Its kind of the same spot. You have a slight eq edge but your preflop play will dictate how postflop plays.

Ok, so say you 3-bet ATo vs an NON SD bound TAG. Whenever Axx flops he is folding quite are large part of his range. If the flop is AT8 with a fd he is prolly folding 55 and calling KQ with the intention of folding the turn UI. Now say you just called preflop and c/r the AT8 flop. This line is by most recognized by a weaker line than 3-balling PF. So it is much more likely that he will SD his 55 on safe turns+rivers and/or play back with KQ putting you on a weakish made hand or a draw. In other words you get more action by just calling vs the non SD bound TAG.


Now say that you 3-ball ATo vs a SD bound LAG. Now its much different. Your 3-bet isnt making him fold that much postflop since he is more SD bound. In other words 3-balling preflop wont kill your action that much on Axx flops.




Ok back to 66-88 hands. Here it is the exact opposite of Ax hands as you would be just fine with people folding more on AT8 flops. This means that you should be more inclined to 3-bet 66-88 vs non SD bound players and call it vs SD bound players. So in this hand PF is a call IMO.


Taking it a bit further; Kx hands. With these hands you'd like to rep a good A. So that you can get folds on those Axx flops. So like the 66-88 hands you should 3-bet Kx against non SD bound players and just call vs SD bound players. (KQ and KJs is a 3-bet for me regardless I am talking about KTo K7s and such.)


Ok I am rambling. I hope I am making sense and that you can use this. GL with 6max!

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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PF is fine against this guys range. you have 22 here.

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Preflop is gonna be fine against almost anybody's range in this spot. This much was figured out like 30 years ago. That's why the decision of whether to 3bet preflop or not should not be based soley on this guy's range. If that was the case, it would be 3bet always. Your statement is the same as saying "3betting with AA is fine against this guy's range." zzzzzz.

[/ QUOTE ]


ILP, you are one of the best players on AP, so glad to see you posting again.

Wait a minute, I don't think you play enough hands/month to qualify. Do you even get in the VIP tournaments anymore? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, I missed this gem last night. Sadly, the answer is no to the tournament question.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

I think this is another example of a preflop equity edge raise that blows up in your face.
I think it is the wrong hand against wrong villain to make this raise preflop.

1.Your chance to improve your hand is not great.
2.He is never going to fold a better hand postflop
3.When behind you´re going to lose more bets than when ahead.
4.As seen in this hand it is easy for you to end up in situations where you easily could make the wrong decision.

I would go so far that even a call preflop and check/calling all streets has a better chance to make more money than a preflop raise.

As played on flop you still have 52% equity against his hand.That means that a bet is not correct if you think that you always get 3-bet by better hands and seldom by worse hands.But If you don´t bet you risk giving freecards.
But who is check/calling a flop after 3-betting preflop and how much does it cost if he takes the freecard?

Re: 77 against a steal
 

Isn't there something to be said for taking the iniative pf when you have an edge in hopes to have villian give up on the flop. No matter what the flop, it would be a great result to just have villian fold to bet on the flop. If villian has 2 overs to our pair and we just call, even if he doesn't hit on the flop, there is a good chance he'll peel the flop. I think if we can do something when we're pretty sure we're ahead that can make our lives easier when we're not so sure, then it's to our benefit.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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If you are against his range of only 21% (as described as being important above) then your equity is only 44% on this flop. I could easily find a fold button here,

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so say we have around 44% flop equity and we're getting 10.5-1 immediate odds to continue. why should we fold here.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

the problem you have here is that you have no idea how to weigh his range because apparently you have no idea how he plays.
for instance, he could easily have A8 or KT here; also could have QJ, J9 or 97, or just a frush draw, or looking for a free turn card with AJ or KQ. maybe he think his 66 is best and will play it like tp cuz he put you on AK? who knows.

you should at the very least see turn imo because there are a ton of draw combos. pot's pretty big. and your hand may be goot.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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stretchmcgee loaned me $3k to get me back on my feets. i paid that guy 100% apr over 4 months!

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you payed 6k for 3?

JT

Re: 77 against a steal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there something to be said for taking the iniative pf when you have an edge in hopes to have villian give up on the flop. No matter what the flop, it would be a great result to just have villian fold to bet on the flop. If villian has 2 overs to our pair and we just call, even if he doesn't hit on the flop, there is a good chance he'll peel the flop. I think if we can do something when we're pretty sure we're ahead that can make our lives easier when we're not so sure, then it's to our benefit.

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I agree with all of what you´re saying.But the difference between us is that I think your life is going to get harder by preflop raising.
Equity wise your preflop 3-bet is worth 0.10 SB against villains range (40%) so your preflop advantage is not that great.And you are opening yourself up for a preflop cap which IMO is devastating for you regardless of Villain does it with a better or worse hand.
You are bying some folding equity against 6-outers on ace boards.But you´re trading that against the potential value you would have got from hands that would not be correct to bet, including the times when he is going to try to bluff turn and river.And I do think that it is a bad trade against this player.Because 77 is extremely hard to play if he calls flop which he will do the majority of time when the pot has grown to 8.5SB when he is going to act.We are not the ones controlling how many bets that are going into the pot.And we almost always have two outs if things go wrong which means that we´re basically in a WA/WB situation.

I think Oink did a good job of explaining why reraising preflop is not the best option in this particular hand.

Give us a lot more equity edge or just a little more folding equity and I would also raise preflop.

Re: 77 against a steal
 

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This means that you should be more inclined to 3-bet 66-88 vs non SD bound players and call it vs SD bound players.

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I agree here. Showdown boundness is the most determining factor here IMO. In fact, if the stealer is weak (folds too often after the flop) and has a wide enough range so he can have many hands without an ace, then you should probably 3-bet any hand you want to play (especially hands without an ace like 77, QJs etc). Then if the flop comes with an ace (more chance if you don't have one), you will be able to take the pot there frequently.

If my opponent isn't weak, then I prefer to call an check-raise most non Axx flops (and some Axx flops too).

In this specific hand, I think you are toast most of the time (given his AF) and are drawing to 2 outs only. I would probably still call to see if I can spike a 7 or a 9.