AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

First orbit so not much reads. I did see UTG cold call with Q9o a few hands ago.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, CO calls, Hero ???



Raising certainly isn't bad here since I will likely have the best hand. This will also get rid of the blinds and limit the number of opponents to 2.

I used to raise here 100% of the time but I am looking for alternative ways to play certain hands. Would anyone consider just calling here? Calling has several consequences:
- I forfeit an equity edge I have now.
- I am forced to hit to win the hand while 3-betting allows me to pick up some pots were everybody misses.
- I give the BB 1:7 odds to call and AKo doesn't like many opponents.
- I can still raise the flop if I hit. This will get the same amount of money in the pot as the case where I 3-bet and bet the flop after everyone checks to me, but now with a much bigger advantage.
- I keep the pot smaller which makes it easier to play TPTK.
- I invest less if I miss. (Small reason but still)

I would be more inclined to just call if the players are bad. The chance to pick up pots where all miss is small there and I get just as much value by raising the flop if I hit.

I would also be more inclined to call if there was an additional cold caller. The pot will be multiway anyhow so I can't keep the number of opponents low. I should then focus on keeping the pot as small as possible. Also, my equity advantage will be lower.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

You answered your own question, but

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I would also be more inclined to call if there was an additional cold caller.


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Terrible!


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I should then focus on keeping the pot as small as possible.

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Why?


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Also, my equity advantage will be lower.


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No it wont. Your eq will be lower, yes! But your eq EDGE will be higher. You want to push that edge by 3-betting


Dont ever just coldcall here. Its really awful.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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Raising certainly isn't bad here since I will likely have the best hand.

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This pretty much sums it up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you look at your own reasoning, then you've come up with a lot of strong arguments for raising and some pretty weak ones for just calling, so raising is pretty clear.

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I can still raise the flop if I hit. This will get the same amount of money in the pot as the case where I 3-bet and bet the flop after everyone checks to me, but now with a much bigger advantage.


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This doesn't really hold up, since both are calling your raise now 100% of the time, but that won't necesserally be the case on the flop.

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- I keep the pot smaller which makes it easier to play TPTK.


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TPTK is a pretty strong hand, that you generally shouldn't mind playing a big pot with. People call down lighter in big pots, so even if you get outdrawn occassionally, you'll get lots of value.

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I would be more inclined to just call if the players are bad.

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This seems backwards to me. If you just call it should be for deception purposes against players, who actually know how to read hands. Bad players don't think about what you have, when you 3bet.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

This is a 3-bet.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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I used to raise here 100% of the time but I am looking for ways to burn money.

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FYP.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

this thread makes my head asplode

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

You want to 3-bet because you have a big equity edge and being in position magnifies that edge.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

i 3town here all day.

The only time I wouldn't 3town is when I play live, and this old man who only has raised KK and AA in his life raised UTG, I folded AKo.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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...and being in position magnifies that edge.

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No it doesnt. Stop saying that. Being in position improves his implied odds as postflop gets easier.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

Some good responses and some dubious ones [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I used to raise this 100% and I will continue to do so. I was just trying out some alternatives. Surely, I will burn some money trying out new things but it's a good way to learn and improve.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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Some good responses and some dubious ones [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I used to raise this 100% and I will continue to do so. I was just trying out some alternatives. Surely, I will burn some money trying out new things but it's a good way to learn and improve.

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Some thing you can learn without burning money. This is one of them...

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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...and being in position magnifies that edge.

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No it doesnt. Stop saying that. Being in position improves his implied odds as postflop gets easier.

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You´re right Oink.But this was more about semantics.I was actually referring to what I prefer to call the overall equity edge (hot and cold equity,implied odds, folding equity and so forth).

But even if you´re right the attitude in your posts are starting to get a bit tiresome.
We are a lot of players that don´t understand poker as well as you do but there is no reason to imply that we are idiots just because we don´t.In this case I´m not actually referring to the replies to my posts.
I know Mvoss defended your attitude the other day in a post where you were quite rude.I don´t think Mvoss did a very good job.
Your knowledge about the game is a good source for players to get better but if you could spread that knowledge with a little more love I think it would be much appreciated.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

Apanage and others. I'm sorry if my post the other day came off as a defense for Oinks attitude, it was actually meant as an explanation, not a defense.

We can disagree on which way of giving advice is better but in the end people are free to post any way they like as long as the moderators allow it. If you don't like the way people post you can always add them to your ignore list.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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Apanage and others. I'm sorry if my post the other day came off as a defense for Oinks attitude, it was actually meant as an explanation, not a defense.

We can disagree on which way of giving advice is better but in the end people are free to post any way they like as long as the moderators allow it. If you don't like the way people post you can always add them to your ignore list.

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The problem with ignoring Oink is that I still kind of like him.He is like a difficult child to me.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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...and being in position magnifies that edge.

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No it doesnt. Stop saying that. Being in position improves his implied odds as postflop gets easier.

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I'm with Oink on this. I'm on record, repeatedly, noting that Apa tends to conflate two very separate issues relating to preflop EQ and post flop playability. Or rather he vastly overestimates the extent to which position effects preflop play once we've decided to play the hand.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

I don't know if this is as clear as twoplustwo seems to think. By coldcalling you may be inducing the BB to make mistakes. If UTG caps I'm usually behind and my hand is transparent.

BB thinks he can play his suited connector and get great odds on the flop for his flush draw against one small bet, but he's wrong, when your hand is good he'll usually be facing two.

The problem is it might not be fun playing ace-high here when you haven't defined your hand. It requires a lot of thinking about what you're representing, etc, so I take it to 3-town here not because I know it's better, but because it's at least nearly as good and I have to think much less, I can worry about other spots.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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Apanage and others. I'm sorry if my post the other day came off as a defense for Oinks attitude, it was actually meant as an explanation, not a defense.

We can disagree on which way of giving advice is better but in the end people are free to post any way they like as long as the moderators allow it. If you don't like the way people post you can always add them to your ignore list.

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The problem with ignoring Oink is that I still kind of like him.He is like a difficult child to me.

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LOL

Apanage, dont take offense. None was meant. If you did, I am sorry.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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Or rather he vastly overestimates the extent to which position effects preflop play once we've decided to play the hand.

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I´m more concerned about how position effects post-flop play.
There is two problems with the hot and cold equity preflop paranoia that is flooding this forum.

1.Hot and cold equity is measuring hand values when the hand is played to showdown.But hands are not played perfectly post-flop according to their actual equity since the information about the other players hands are concealed.Pots are constantly being taken down by hands that had less equity than other hands.And many hands are laid down by players that had enough equity to proceed.

2.The equity does not measure how many bets you win when you have the best hand or how many bets that goes in the pot when you have a losing hand.It just estimates how many times your hand is going to win against another hand (and it can´t even estimate that correctly as you can see in 1.)not which hand is going to win the most money.

Both problems are related to implied odds.And IMO your choice of preflop action and/or the way you intend to play the hand <u>when you´ve decided to play the hand </u> strongly effects your implied odds.
And in turn your choice of preflop action and your post-flop plan should be strongly effected by your position and implied odds instead of hot and cold equity alone.

It is my strong belief that you can have a decent equity edge preflop and that you can have two different outcomes (one where you lose money and one where you win money)depending on whether you raise or call preflop.
This phenomena is also IMO strongly linked to position. Generally speaking (if we are table selecting well) I think that a more passive approach preflop when OOP enhances our Implied odds and that a more aggressive approach in position enhances our implied odds.
The key to profitable poker IMO is to know what action that gives you maximum EV combining raw preflop equity value with implied odds value.
I´m probably wrong but I´m not yet totally convinced that the "2+2 way" of playing certain hands against certain villains gives the optimal EV.
In this case I´m however totally certain that raising preflop gives optimally EV.

As said in my answer to Oink.By equity edge I didn´t mean hot and cold equity.I meant overall equity including implied odds.I didn´t realize that this equity term was a product of my own brain and that the term really didnt exist outside it.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

Look, we've been over this before. You think that by playing it passively pre flop you will make up the lost equity edge post flop. I disagree strongly.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

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Look, we've been over this before. You think that by playing it passively pre flop you will make up the lost equity edge post flop. I disagree strongly.

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No that is just a small part of what I´m saying.
The bigger part is that in some situations with some hands against some opponents your implied odds( read your chance to win money)are so bad that your preflop equity just exists on paper.To realize it you have to play almost perfect poker.In fact you can end up losing money because you have been sucked into turn and river by playing a difficult hand with initiative.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

One thing I didn't notice, but if you are concerned about deception, I would think that reraising AK here is important because if you only raise big pairs you may be giving away a lot. If you're looking to "give a little value back" with deception, I'd say always reraise with AK and the occasional low suited connector. But even that may be bad, although I see players who are otherwise winners occasionally threebet with 76s.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

The value you gain from deception doesnt outweight the value you lose by making a terrible 3 bet with 76s. I wouldnt be concerned about deception in a multiway pot anyway.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

Fair enough. Like I said, it looks really weak to me but players who I have booked as winners in my PT DB like to do that from time to time.

Re: AKo (Cold call or 3-bet)
 

Apa,

I don't disagree with what you are saying in the abstract. I think the instances you have used as instances to apply that theory are erroneous as an empirical matter. AK just isn't that tough to play in limited hold them so as to require this mythical "perfect play" to realize your EQ edge. The same with KQs in the BB with many limpers (yes KQs is harder to play OOP multiway, but not by nearly as much as would be necessary to make checking your option &gt; raising)