ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

villain is USCPhildo, I know hes a successful MTTer but don't have much in terms of reads on him... what should my play be on the turn? and what are thoughts on the flop check through... thanks

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1500/t3000
(Ante: t400)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t13683
UTG+1: t149654
MP1: t111326
MP2: t77420
Hero: t57550
Button: t145700
SB: t160880
BB: t67650

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t7999</font>, 2 folds, BB calls t4999 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t15699)</font>.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t20698, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t20698, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets t12000</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero ?

edit: spelling

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

By checking the flop, you are now a proud owner of a fold.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
By checking the flop, you are now a proud owner of a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You're just going to give him credit for a Q? Aren't we still ahead here pretty often? Maybe a Cbet would have taken this down, but I don't see why, just because we checked behind, that means we have to fold now.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

I would def check this flop. If BB is a good player, he'll know that once u check behind on the flop, there are almost no hands that u can rep on the turn/river (except maybe Axcc.) Why call the turn when there's a good chance that he fires at the river, both with value bets and some bluffs. You have almost no chance to improve and your equity against his range is behind pot odds IMO.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

i make it 9k on the flop and let it go if he cr me and go into check mode thereafter ... raise more pf?

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By checking the flop, you are now a proud owner of a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You're just going to give him credit for a Q? Aren't we still ahead here pretty often? Maybe a Cbet would have taken this down, but I don't see why, just because we checked behind, that means we have to fold now.

[/ QUOTE ]
He doesn't need a queen. Read dependant, he could fold to a raise, but what an ugly board. What hand checks behind on the flop on this board to raise the turn? And if you flat call the turn, he most definetly puts you on AK, and will fire again on the river. You could make an argument for continuing on with the hand, to each his own, I let it go.

What is your plan then call? Raise with intentions of calling a shove? or folding to a shove?

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would def check this flop. If BB is a good player, he'll know that once u check behind on the flop, there are almost no hands that u can rep on the turn/river (except maybe Axcc.) Why call the turn when there's a good chance that he fires at the river, both with value bets and some bluffs. You have almost no chance to improve and your equity against his range is behind pot odds IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dependant on your table image a c-bet is mandatory. Unless you are a maniac that was raising 1/3 of the hands, than I would just assume a good player is trapping here with AA. Otherwise why are we raising with 66, just burning money, we won't see too many flops that are great for our hand.

I think the better question is what is this guy flat calling out of the BB? Is this a monster or is this habitual?

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

I don't mind the flop check here since flop texture and stacks are great for him to CRAI. This turn card is pretty good for you since it reduces the chance of an 8 in his range, and he's not likely betting a 7. So his range is Q, draws, and bluffs.

Call turn, eval river.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind the flop check here since flop texture and stacks are great for him to CRAI. This turn card is pretty good for you since it reduces the chance of an 8 in his range, and he's not likely betting a 7. So his range is Q, draws, and bluffs.

Call turn, eval river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's you plan for a club, spade, card higher than 8, card lower than 6? If the 6 falls than we fist pump. Assuming he leads for about 15-20k, no matter what hits.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

I think a big problem here are the stack-sizes with antes that huge.
While you have 19BB your M=7,5
With your preflop raise BB gets pot odds of 1:3! - so he can really call with ATC here, still getting the right odds.
The problem is if you raise more preflop you are committed.

So which betsize is best preflop?
I think 2,5BB is fine if you play a hand that has some potential to improve, like an Ax (x&gt;9) or SC.
I don't think that your preflop betsize with a medium PP is well chosen, cause you will get a call from either or both of the blinds and have nearly no chance to improve - for setmining the stacks are too low.

So if you play this hand, and I think you should play it I would make it more preflop.
1.) you get FE, and you are glad if you can win this hand without seeing a flop.
2.) if you still get called, you know much better where you stand - now you simply have no idea - BB can play 72o and you would be behind
3.) if you bet more preflop, you cross the commitment threshold and can play it much easier postflop, cause decisions get more easier.

As played here I wouldn't call the turn bet, cause this commits you anyway - either shove it or fold and I would fold it, cause you lack FE to make it +EV.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

My thinking was sort of along the lines of a few of you. I checked behind the flop because it is a spot where I'll often be check raised and have to fold. I knew bb was getting 3-1 preflop so is his range is fairly wide which made me feel that I'm going to have the best hand a large amount of the time, especially after the turn fell pairing the board.

I shoved it in on the turn. This is probably bad, I didn't really have any reads on him. I knew he was good so I'd expect a strong player to take a stab at the pot after the PFR shows weakness but I'm thinking calling and seeing a river might be the best line. Alot of the time I take that line though, the river will hit my opponent giving him the best hand and I'll wish that I had pushed him off of it. Is that flawed thinking? Is there more value in calling and seeing a river and then folding to a dangerous card, checking behind, or calling a brick?

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
With your preflop raise BB gets pot odds of 1:3! - so he can really call with ATC here, still getting the right odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to advocate this in a lot of your posts. I don't quite understand why. No one is calling this raise with ATC, unless the raiser is bad/maniac.

While people get the "correct" odds to call. At these late stages of tournaments people look at the absolute amount of the raise. i.e. "sure i'm getting 2.5:1, but do I want to just lose 4k more on this hand" most people fold. At these levels raises of 7-7.5k get the job done easily.

Stealing and re-stealing becomes the game here, so I think it's absolutly critical to raise small. If you get RRed you lose less. Your c-bets are smaller you risk less. While raising more PF may allow for the hand to play out easier, it is by no means the optimal play if you look at the over all goal of going deep and accumulating chips.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you get RRed you lose less. Your c-bets are smaller you risk less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you advocating a fold to a resteal here?

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you get RRed you lose less. Your c-bets are smaller you risk less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you advocating a fold to a resteal here?

[/ QUOTE ]

More of a general idea statement. The poster I had quoted, seems to advocated larger PF raises in these late tourney spots. I was just trying to understand why.

Re: ftp 25k ITM, 66 gets flatted by bb
 

all in preflop ? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]