Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

Main villain (BB) is 22/16/1.6, can't remember him ever 3betting PF, over 160 hands.

Other 2 villains play lots of pots, the more conservative one is 66/6/0.7. Other 2 villains also call down alot with A high and bottom pair type hands,

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (10.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

My question is how bad did I butcher the hand trying to get max value. I was being passive wanting SB to call the bets thinking a raise would prob fold him out, because of all the PF action.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I think the flop call is OK but definatley raise the turn BB will likely put in two bets anyway so doesnt matter much if SB folds if BB has aces or kings he might even get spewy and 3 bet you never know, IF your plan works and SB check calls whats to say he's gonna put more money in on the river anyway ?

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

That's what I was thinking, raise turn, if SB calls bonus money but atleast BB is calling the extra bet, and prob one more on the river as he did.

Any thoughts on raising the flop, pros and cons?

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

cap preflop and just keep betting and raising.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I am playing aggressively on the flop and I want the BB to think I am overplaying AJ. If some donk has 76 here or is peeling with overcards + backdoor flush draw, I am going to charge him to get there.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

In a pot this size this is absolutely horrible IMO. Just hit the bet/raise button as often as you possibly can.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

This is the worst played JJ hand I have ever seen posted on any message board.

WOW!

Cap preflop and its not even close. The pot is either going to be 4-way in which case you have a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE equity edge. If the pot isnt going to be 4-ways but 3-ways you get dead money in the pot by folding out the SB and your eq is still huge.

Preflop is so terrible I felt like banging my head into the table - and then you topped it by your flop play.

WHAT

THE

[censored]?


What the hell are you thinking man? You have the NUTS in a 4-way pot that was 3-bet preflop. Why the hell would you ever not raise and jam this flop?

What ever you were thinking on the flop has to stop instantly or you will never ever crush online poker. wow!


Ok I have bashed you enough. As played you need to raise the turn for value. BB has AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, TT, 99 and you are way ahead. Since its 3-way its an even easier raise.


[ QUOTE ]
My question is how bad did I butcher the hand trying to get max value. I was being passive wanting SB to call the bets thinking a raise would prob fold him out, because of all the PF action.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hell would you like to keep SB in for 1 bet when you can jam the flop and get 4 bets in on the flop and 2 big bets (at least) in on the turn?

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

just keep clicking the raise button from preflop on

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

OP just remember every time you had KK in this spot, fast played, won a big pot vs. AQ when the guy spewed when his Q hit or lost a big pot to AK because for some reason he b3-bet AKhi vs. you pf cap OOP.

You have to jam that flop man. HAVE to.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I didn't cap PF, because I'm pretty certain BB already has me beat. Like I said BB has never 3bet PF. Why put more money in a pot you're pretty sure you're beat on.

My reasoning for not raising the flop was to keep everyone in calling. Like I said there was one reasonable player in the hand and 2 calling stations that weren't letting a pair go, ie pocket 22's on up, for one bet but probably for 2 bets they would fold.

As for the range for BB it is much smaller than AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, TT, 99. His range is AA, KK, QQ, AKs.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

Thanks oink for berrating me. Obviously I'm trying to learn that's why I posted the hand. Obviously I know I butchered it, atleast know I misplayed it or I wouldn't have posted it. All the BS you added in your post turned a post with good advice into a post showing the nicer side of your personality. This isn't BBV, it's a strategy forum, I'm here to learn.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for not raising the flop was to keep everyone in calling. Like I said there was one reasonable player in the hand and 2 calling stations that weren't letting a pair go, ie pocket 22's on up, for one bet but probably for 2 bets they would fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is some of the worst reasoning I've seen in this forum in a very long time, you're missing a ton of value by not raising here and you're letting people draw cheaply to their longshots. Keep raising, the calling stations will call.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

Quiet,

oink might have been a bit harsh, but he's doing it for your benefit. Getting a light (but justified) berating hammers the point home much better than a gloves-on treatment does. And it isn't meant to be mean-spirited.

Getting criticized is never fun, but you need to develop a thicker skin when you start out posting. You also need a little humility because these guys are giving out gold in the form of free advice and Oink is probably one of the best active SSSH posters around. If we were all stockbrokers then we'd have to pay thousands of dollars for the equivalent advice regarding stocks/investment, don't forget that.

I think this is especially funny because I remember reacting exactly the same way the first time I posted a badly played hand and got a similar treatment. We come in here looking for acceptance from "the cool kids" and then they diss us. It feels horrible, but you'll get used to it, and you'll get better and eventually you'll become one of the cool kids.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I get what you're saying wolf, I just thought the berratings were saved for BBV. Maybe I should have thrown a line in there about appreciating the good advice but not understanding the berrating. I guess I should have expected it with such a butchered hand.

Guess it's the same as a coach yelling at a QB for throwing to that wide open LB.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I was out of line in the first post. Sorry.


[ QUOTE ]
As for the range for BB it is much smaller than AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, TT, 99. His range is AA, KK, QQ, AKs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, if you knew for sure that this is his range you should have stated in the OP.

That said, there is now way in hell you can know this after 160 hands.

Taking AK, AQ, AJs, TT, 99 and 88 out of his range after 160 is impossible unless you have ninja reads.

You have to accept that the variance in poker can mean that this guy is actually a 30/20 LAGTAG who has been on a bad run of cards in the hands you have played with him.

Your stat read only makes it less likely he has 99, it doesnt make it impossible.


The most important thing you need to learn here is the flop play and also the turn play.

Your argument for calling is that you want to keep the third guy in.

- If he is going to call 2 bets then it didnt keep him in that you just called. This is going to happen with non-zero probability.

- If BB is going to jam the flop - which is quite likley if he has QQ+, AKs - then you are trying to keep the third guy in paying 1 bet while you are missing out on 3 from the BB when he has QQ+.

- When BB is going to jam and the third guy doesnt fold you will win 8 small bets on the flop and 4 big bets on the turn. Your line won 2 of each.


EDIT: I FORGOT THIS

You also want the third guy to fold quite a lot of hands. It would be ok for you to fold any gutshot and backdoor flush draw. You want him to fold 76 or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and a bunch of other hands.

I hate one liners but here is one

In big pots your first priority is to win the pot, i.e get folds. In small pots your first priority is to get bets in the pot.



Turn

Even if we stick to your claim tat he has AKs, QQ+ you are still way ahead on the turn. There is 4 ways he can have AKs but he is prolly going to fold if you raise. There is 3 ways he can have QQ and 12 ways he can have KK and AA.

You need to jam to get value from AA and KK. Since you underrepresented your hand it is even possible that he will 3 bet those hands in which case you can get 4 bets in on the turn.


Your play prolly cost you between 2 and 4 Big bets. With a winrate of 1BB/100 you need to play between 200 and 400 hands to make up for that. It is quite a significant mistake.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for not raising the flop was to keep everyone in calling. Like I said there was one reasonable player in the hand and 2 calling stations that weren't letting a pair go, ie pocket 22's on up, for one bet but probably for 2 bets they would fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should only apply this reasoning selectively. There are a few cases where you might go for overcalls. For example, when you're up against a good aggressive player who is betting and you aren't sure about your hand or you think you probably tie him (for example, there's a 4 card straight on the board ) In those cases you can call to encourage others to stay in the pot. It's rarely correct to slowplay a strong hand like this in the hopes of overcalls. Generally, you want to raise and hope they chase or don't believe you, especially at these levels.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks oink for berrating me. Obviously I'm trying to learn that's why I posted the hand. Obviously I know I butchered it, atleast know I misplayed it or I wouldn't have posted it. All the BS you added in your post turned a post with good advice into a post showing the nicer side of your personality. This isn't BBV, it's a strategy forum, I'm here to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey if you don't like the way Oink posts you can always add him to you're ignore list. He's an [censored], but he's giving out some very good advice so what do you prefer, having an [censored] help you or to get no help. As Wolfram said there's a reason a lot of posters post somewhat harshly and it's not that they don't like you, it's that they don't like your play or your reasoning for making said play. Of course the [censored] could have posted something like: "Well imho you should have raised somewhere in this hand, I'm pretty sure that would be best since you have the nuts" but I feel confident that you'll remember the [censored]'s advice better the way he wrote it.
<font color="white">And [censored] FC Copenhagen BTW!!!!</font>

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I know you guys hate maxims cause "it depends" but...

If you never slowplay the nuts in lhe you won't be leaving much money at the table.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

Thanks oink, by far the best explanation of all my missed bets. I'm only ~20k hands into LHE and obviously have a long way to go. I think this type play is part of the reason my agressive factor hovers around 1.6.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

QE,

Like i said - just remember all the pots you got drawn out on next time you don't want to jam early.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks oink for berrating me. Obviously I'm trying to learn that's why I posted the hand. Obviously I know I butchered it, atleast know I misplayed it or I wouldn't have posted it. All the BS you added in your post turned a post with good advice into a post showing the nicer side of your personality. This isn't BBV, it's a strategy forum, I'm here to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey if you don't like the way Oink posts you can always add him to you're ignore list. He's an [censored], but he's giving out some very good advice so what do you prefer, having an [censored] help you or to get no help. As Wolfram said there's a reason a lot of posters post somewhat harshly and it's not that they don't like you, it's that they don't like your play or your reasoning for making said play. Of course the [censored] could have posted something like: "Well imho you should have raised somewhere in this hand, I'm pretty sure that would be best since you have the nuts" but I feel confident that you'll remember the [censored]'s advice better the way he wrote it.
<font color="white">And [censored] FC Copenhagen BTW!!!!</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that Oink gives good advice and I appreciate that he shares his analytic thinking. But I don't agree with Mvoss that harrasing is good pedagogics.

But since nobody gets payed here you can't always expect posters to use good pedagogics, but off course good manners is preferable. Oink gives good advice and usually explains his thinking well, but he sometimes shows some Gehrig-manners. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

"pedagogics", I had to look that one up.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

gosh this is terrible, bet and raise somewhere

ps. we have a set

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Flop: (13 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, SB calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

"Oh hi there MP and SB. I have top set. Oh, would you like to draw (correctly) to your gutshot with 87, A2, or A3? Sure no problem! I'll just call and then you guys can just call and draw behind me for cheap. Yeah, I know you'd fold if I made it two bets for you but I'm feeling fancy today, so let's give it a whirl."

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

you can't call a flop 3bet and raise/cap the turn if you don't raise the flop.

cap PF, raise/call flop, raise cap turn, bet river $$$$$$$$$$$

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

I read through the entire thread and was surprised to see that nobody mentioned that you should BETRAISERAISERAISEBETBETBETRAISERAISERAISERAISERAI SE.

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I read through the entire thread and was surprised to see that nobody mentioned that you should BETRAISERAISERAISEBETBETBETRAISERAISERAISERAISERAI SE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read again...

Re: Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?
 

Just brutalize people for peeling. Please.