deep stack live
 

5/10 nl with 20 bring in at turningstone...you have 4k and stacks range from 1.5-5k

you've been sitting at the table for about 45 minutes and have probably been too active

hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the sb and tight UTG player limps for 20 with about 1500 behind; a not too active player min raises to 40 from mp with 4k behind; you call and utg limper calls

flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and utg check, mp bets 100, you call 100 and utg folds

turn A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

plans?

Re: deep stack live
 

check raise.

Re: deep stack live
 

assuming villian is not very active, do you really think you have folding equity here? what range of hands do you put villian on to make this play optimal

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]
assuming villian is not very active, do you really think you have folding equity here? what range of hands do you put villian on to make this play optimal

[/ QUOTE ]
AZK, tell me if I'm wrong in this, but I think he's CRing to represent a set or, occaisonally, air. If this is the case, villain is often folding, sometimes calling, but pretty much never raising, so at least you get to see the river.

Re: deep stack live
 

well, wtf does his minraise pfr mean.

Re: deep stack live
 

Cr is Goot. He folds a lot.

Re: deep stack live
 

i don't like the flop call oop with a gutshot. but since you got to the turn, i think it's a check-call here. your draws are very disguised: the flush is backdoor, and both straights are gutshots; if you hit, it sets up a river c/r perfectly.

Re: deep stack live
 

ALL IN IM ALL IN

Re: deep stack live
 

why go all-in? we have a disguised draw and very good implied odds. i don't mind a check-raise, but i don't want to get all the money in on the turn since we will probably get paid anyway if we hit our draw on the river.

i don't know what the PF mini-raise means, but if villain is likely to have a monster, i'd rather check-call turn and check-raise river if we hit.

Re: deep stack live
 

I would check the turn and see how much he bets. If he makes a smallish bet for the pot size I raise him big. If he bets big like he likes the Ace then I just call. Then if you hit your hand either way on river I lead big with pot and a half size bet.

Re: deep stack live
 

I wouldn't call that flop either. But the fact that villain is a passive player, and even though he just made a minraise, means he has a better than average hand, and maybe a real big one since lots of players like him think they want 6 callers when they have AA.

As played, checkraising is a bad play, and check/calling lets him know you have a draw or a weak hand, and you still don't really know much about his and how it relates to the flop.

So my play would be to lead the turn and see what he does. Maybe he doesn't like that A, and will now fold a pp that didn't hit a set. It is true that this risks being raised and having to fold a decent draw, but you don't know that he really has enough of a hand to call if you hit anyway. And since he minraised preflop, he is more likely to be a minraiser postflop, which gives you both a better read on his hand (and thus whether you can make something if you hit) and still doesn't price you off your draw. Plus if he actually has a big hand, then he might just incorrectly decide to slowplay, allowing you to bet a completed draw on the river and get raised by a worse hand.

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]
check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize how deep these stacks are, AZK? pot is ~300 and the effective stack size is 3800. Does that influence your decision?

(IMO live guys never fold anything, there's plenty of room here to get paid, and we can call a pot bet with this draw, so I like check/call.)

Re: deep stack live
 

my bad, i read it as 1500....yeah, check raise not a good idea...

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]
5/10 nl with 20 bring in at turningstone...you have 4k and stacks range from 1.5-5k

you've been sitting at the table for about 45 minutes and have probably been too active

hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the sb and tight UTG player limps for 20 with about 1500 behind; a not too active player min raises to 40 from mp with 4k behind; you call and utg limper calls

flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and utg check, mp bets 100, you call 100 and utg folds

turn A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

plans?

[/ QUOTE ]

The mini raise pre flop indicated that he's a weak player, and if he is generally tight he probably has a big pair or AK.

Unfortunately if you lead the turn you won't get any information. He probably won't fold any big pair against the turn lead and won't raise with AK or AA either if he's passive enough to mini raise from middle like that.

I think the best line is check call. You won't be giving away your hand to this weak player, and you can get maximum value from your hand on the river if you catch.

Re: deep stack live
 

Hi BluffThis,

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call that flop either. But the fact that villain is a passive player, and even though he just made a minraise, means he has a better than average hand, and maybe a real big one since lots of players like him think they want 6 callers when they have AA.

As played, checkraising is a bad play, and check/calling lets him know you have a draw or a weak hand, and you still don't really know much about his and how it relates to the flop.

So my play would be to lead the turn and see what he does. Maybe he doesn't like that A, and will now fold a pp that didn't hit a set. It is true that this risks being raised and having to fold a decent draw, but you don't know that he really has enough of a hand to call if you hit anyway. And since he minraised preflop, he is more likely to be a minraiser postflop, which gives you both a better read on his hand (and thus whether you can make something if you hit) and still doesn't price you off your draw. Plus if he actually has a big hand, then he might just incorrectly decide to slowplay, allowing you to bet a completed draw on the river and get raised by a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post.

Re: deep stack live
 

I don't think anyone could have said it better than this.

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]

So my play would be to lead the turn and see what he does. Maybe he doesn't like that A, and will now fold a pp that didn't hit a set. It is true that this risks being raised and having to fold a decent draw,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not gonna happen, they have $3800 behind and the pot is $300. Unless villain throws in a monstrous overbet, hero's going to be able to call.

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero's going to be able to call.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is assuming hero can get paid if he hits. Players who won't pay off deny implied odds to those playing draws as long as they don't let themselves get bluffed off too often by the drawing player who then trys to steal when missing. Also you are assuming that the size of a raise won't be of the shutout variety.

Re: deep stack live
 

250$, c/c, or c/r

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately if you lead the turn you won't get any information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need information? You have Jhigh, and 15 almost nut outs. If you miss your no good, if you hit your good (with the exception of the 2 board pairing clubs maybe). Not that i mind c/c here, but i do not think this is an adequate reason for it.

Re: deep stack live
 

[ QUOTE ]
assuming villian is not very active, do you really think you have folding equity here? what range of hands do you put villian on to make this play optimal

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has KQ, KK, or just about anything other than two pair, AK, or a set he can certainly fold to a checkraise.

Good thing about a check-raise is that your stack is deep enough so that if he does have a set or two pair and doesn't price you out, you stand to get paid with your somewhat hidden draw should you hit, especially if you hit the straight.