Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

Villian is kinda an agressive but standard tight player, we dont have much recent histroy. He is playing 18/15 over 300 hands.
I checked flop to get value on later streets, what do you think of that, and what do you think of all streets.
SB: $54.00
BB: $290.00
UTG: $260.15
MP: $439.15
CO: $440.95
Hero (BTN): $240.70

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $8.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $24.00</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $16.00

Flop: ($51) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($51) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $32.00</font>, Hero calls $32.00

River: ($115) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $184.70</font>,

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

whats the point of the shove?

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

i hate the river shove unless you guys have a ton of history or you have been aggro against him. you arent getting called by worse enough to make it profitable, so i would likely check unless i had a strong read that he is ready to look me up light.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

horrible spot to push

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

at 18/15 I am not sure what he calls a 3bet with. TT, AQ, AK are not very probable, although there are players that would call with AK couse they have seen it on TV [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

tricky AA,KK are a possibility, so is QQ that got scared on the flop

so my range of villain's hands on the river would be

AA,KK,AK with him being scared of the QQ on board, if I am right then the shove is good bc it can fold better hands IMO

is my range estimation too tight?

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

I forgot to say that I think the check on the flop is too fancy. This is a 3bet pot if you check here it's definitely not going to help you get value on later streets. AK bets here 99% of the time so you are screaming you have AQ or KK+ with your check IMO.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

This hand is all over the place, and not at all in a good way.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

Kinda like it a lot actually.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

horrible shove imo .
U r chasing worse hands that u could have get some value from and u only gonna get call by better hand.
b/f 70
Don t mind the check on the flop btw .

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

I'd like this a lot at 5/10, but you don't need to merge your range at 1/2.

Bet 66 to get paid by smaller pairs.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

I'm firing a CBET every time I 3bet preflop, even if I hold AQ. As played DONT get fancy with JJ, extracting value is just too tricky.
On river your only being called by a better hand. If unsure bet 2/3rds.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

Your thinking is very very flawed primate.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
horrible shove imo .
U r chasing worse hands that u could have get some value from and u only gonna get call by better hand.
b/f 70
Don t mind the check on the flop btw .

[/ QUOTE ]

so you think 18/15 would call a 3bet with 77,99,TT OOP and not play it for pure set value and pay off on the river?

I think it's very unlikely but I might be wrong.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

The majority seems to hate it, which doesnt suprise me. I think yegon mentioned it, but part of my reason for shoving was that i thought he could end up w AA or KK some times, which i am hoping this player will fold to a shove. I dont know if thats wishing for too much, with most players it is, but i considered him compitent. I dont like it so much after thinkin about it, alittle to fancy for 1/2 but if he calls with TT or folds AA KK i feel like a genious.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm firing a CBET every time I 3bet preflop, even if I hold AQ. As played DONT get fancy with JJ, extracting value is just too tricky.
On river your only being called by a better hand. If unsure bet 2/3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think alot of people would agree that c betting anytime you 3b is a mistake, and exploitable. I think roughly 40 percent we prob should be checking. THats a very debatable number, but the point is its a huge leak to be cbetting every 3b pot.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

Ok lets agree to disagree.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

agreed

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm firing a CBET every time I 3bet preflop, even if I hold AQ. As played DONT get fancy with JJ, extracting value is just too tricky.
On river your only being called by a better hand. If unsure bet 2/3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think alot of people would agree that c betting anytime you 3b is a mistake, and exploitable. I think roughly 40 percent we prob should be checking. THats a very debatable number, but the point is its a huge leak to be cbetting every 3b pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you have any links to some theory posts where I might read about this? I'd like to learn more about these situations. I can't think about a reason not to cbet a 3bet pot on the flop IP when checked to, especially at small stakes where you do not play many 3bet pots and the chance that your opponent will spot this tendecy and be able to exploit it is soooo small IMO.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

Nobody is folding AA/KK here imo

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm firing a CBET every time I 3bet preflop, even if I hold AQ. As played DONT get fancy with JJ, extracting value is just too tricky.
On river your only being called by a better hand. If unsure bet 2/3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think alot of people would agree that c betting anytime you 3b is a mistake, and exploitable. I think roughly 40 percent we prob should be checking. THats a very debatable number, but the point is its a huge leak to be cbetting every 3b pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you have any links to some theory posts where I might read about this? I'd like to learn more about these situations. I can't think about a reason not to cbet a 3bet pot on the flop IP when checked to, especially at small stakes where you do not play many 3bet pots and the chance that your opponent will spot this tendecy and be able to exploit it is soooo small IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think its a matter so much of a player actually deciding to exploit you, i think its more of a mathematical thing, where vs some players on various flops, their range isnt going to be wide enough to make a cbet with air profitable for us. I think that if we are not aware of when those situations arise, we are going to be spewing alot. I feel like some people dont realize it is okay to check fold in 3b pots....

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is folding AA/KK here imo

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a bluff?

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm firing a CBET every time I 3bet preflop, even if I hold AQ. As played DONT get fancy with JJ, extracting value is just too tricky.
On river your only being called by a better hand. If unsure bet 2/3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think alot of people would agree that c betting anytime you 3b is a mistake, and exploitable. I think roughly 40 percent we prob should be checking. THats a very debatable number, but the point is its a huge leak to be cbetting every 3b pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you have any links to some theory posts where I might read about this? I'd like to learn more about these situations. I can't think about a reason not to cbet a 3bet pot on the flop IP when checked to, especially at small stakes where you do not play many 3bet pots and the chance that your opponent will spot this tendecy and be able to exploit it is soooo small IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think its a matter so much of a player actually deciding to exploit you, i think its more of a mathematical thing, where vs some players on various flops, their range isnt going to be wide enough to make a cbet with air profitable for us. I think that if we are not aware of when those situations arise, we are going to be spewing alot. I feel like some people dont realize it is okay to check fold in 3b pots....

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually your right. I'm CBetting 90% of the time, player dependant of course. If I'm playing someone who Folds to CBET 60%+ of the time mathmatically I'm CBetting.
Versus calling station I'll reconsider. However with position I'm CBettingggg

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm firing a CBET every time I 3bet preflop, even if I hold AQ. As played DONT get fancy with JJ, extracting value is just too tricky.
On river your only being called by a better hand. If unsure bet 2/3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think alot of people would agree that c betting anytime you 3b is a mistake, and exploitable. I think roughly 40 percent we prob should be checking. THats a very debatable number, but the point is its a huge leak to be cbetting every 3b pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you have any links to some theory posts where I might read about this? I'd like to learn more about these situations. I can't think about a reason not to cbet a 3bet pot on the flop IP when checked to, especially at small stakes where you do not play many 3bet pots and the chance that your opponent will spot this tendecy and be able to exploit it is soooo small IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think its a matter so much of a player actually deciding to exploit you, i think its more of a mathematical thing, where vs some players on various flops, their range isnt going to be wide enough to make a cbet with air profitable for us. I think that if we are not aware of when those situations arise, we are going to be spewing alot. I feel like some people dont realize it is okay to check fold in 3b pots....

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually your right. I'm CBetting 90% of the time, player dependant of course. If I'm playing someone who Folds to CBET 60%+ of the time mathmatically I'm CBetting.
Versus calling station I'll reconsider. However with position I'm CBettingggg

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not thinking so much in terms of a calling station, but like the 16/10 you repop w AK and he calls and the flop comes like 9 high, i think thats a spot where a bet isnt going to fold enough of his range for it to be profitable for us to bet there. Id be more inclined to cbet vs someone who is stationy (at least stationy pf in 3b pots) cause his range is wide enough that our cbet is prob going to fold out enuogh hands to be profitable.

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

Ok we're talking nits. Yep no CBETA with air versus nits in fact I dont 3bet UTG nit raiser like eva with AK

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

lets just go back to what we were doing before, agree to agree that we arent even disagreeing

Re: Do you like a river shove here. line check....
 

[ QUOTE ]
lets just go back to what we were doing before, agree to agree that we arent even disagreeing

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]