Arky Vaughan
 

today is the first time i ever have seen that name in print, or ever heard it. he was the best player in the decade of the 30's.

vaughan

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But the best player of the late 1930s was someone who never finished higher than thirrd in the MVP balloting and never won a World Series. That player was Arky Vaughan, who in 1935 became the only shortstop besides Honus Wagner to lead his league in OPS in the modern era; the .491 OBP he posted that season is also the best ever for a shortstop.

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nates article, its not free but its good...buy a subscription

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

he was no Ross Barnes

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Bill Dahlen pwns.

In all seriousness I have looked at AV's numbers before and they're very impressive, seems like an amazing player who has been unfortunately forgotten over time.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

I'd say that there's a fair amount of excellent players from the pre-WWII era that have been forgotten over time. Take Harry Heilmann, here's a guy who hit over .400 several times in his career, and had 4 batting titles. It's just the nature of time and people dying off that were around when these guys played.

While the legends will never be forgotten, I'd be willing to bet that in 50-75 years, people will look back at a guy like Curt Schilling and say, wow, this guy was a good pitcher, why is he rarely mentioned as a great player.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

I didn't know about him until I bought a Bill James Abstract.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Glad I'm not the only one who read the article and thought, "WTF is an Arky Vaughn?"

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Jim Bottomley and Heinie Manush are other excellent, forgotten, players who come to mind from this era. Subject should probably have its' own thread. Excellent example as far as Curt Schilling.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Excellent example as far as Curt Schilling.

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i disagree. i actually see schilling as a guy who will get TOO MUCH credit years down the road. the sock, winning the WS in boston, his mouth..no way hes forgotten.

i think a perfect example as a pitcher will be kevin brown, who will have about the same career worth as schilling with little to no fanfare.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Kevin Brown had one of the most insane peaks ever.

Another great example: Tris Speaker. How about Dick Allen?

If you want a modern day example, Gary Sheffield.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

I guess Chipper as well. I don't know where he'd end up on the list of all-time greatest 3rd basemen, but I do think he's in the top 10 (behind Schmidt, Brett, Matthews, Boggs, Santo, and Brooks Robinson).

That brings up a couple more guys: Ron Santo and Darrell Evans

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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I didn't know about him until I bought a Bill James Abstract.

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Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Excellent example as far as Curt Schilling.

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i disagree. i actually see schilling as a guy who will get TOO MUCH credit years down the road. the sock, winning the WS in boston, his mouth..no way hes forgotten.

i think a perfect example as a pitcher will be kevin brown, who will have about the same career worth as schilling with little to no fanfare.

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the thing is, there is tons of legend stuff like the bloody sock throughout the history of baseball, and do we know that kind of stuff now, not really. The bloody sock will go down like that, though it will probably be a bit more remembered because of it happening during the TV era of baseball. That being said though, we know all about it now because it's happened recently, I highly doubt that it will be all that talked about in 50 years except for boston fans. Hell, it's already been kind of stopped talked about by normal baseball fans

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Schilling was an important (and celebrated) part of two WS teams, including a very memorable 2001 series. Kevin Brown is a much much better example.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Kevin Brown had one of the most insane peaks ever.

Another great example: Tris Speaker. How about Dick Allen?

If you want a modern day example, Gary Sheffield.

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Don't think I buy Speaker in this debate. He's constantly mentioned with Cobb, Mays, Mantle et al in greatest cf talks and has been in my 30 years as a ballfan. Little known fact; Speaker was the only known member of both the BBHOF and the KKK, but this is back when the Klan was basically a social club.

Here's a few others for you guys to check out:

Sam Crawford
Ed Walsh
Joe McGinnity
Old Hoss Radbourne (you'll like his '84 season)
Three-finger brown
Ed Walsh
Jack Chesbro
Heinie Manusch
Chuck Klein
Al Simmons
Gabby Hartnett
Rube Marguard ('Rube' was essentionally 'donkey' a century ago)
Sliding Billy Hamilton
Hugh Duffy
Tuck Turner (Look at his 1894 and realize he was his team's fourth outfielder. Then, look tat he other three.)
Kid Nichols
Ken Williams (The first 30-30 man by decades)
Smokey Joe Wood
Eddie Collins
Home Run Baker
Adie joss
Hal newhouser
Dazzy Vance (Note the age at which he started pitching)
babe Herman
Johnny Mize (HR/SO)
Tip O'Neill

Used to be I could have built this list off the top of my head. now, a quick look at the year by year ops/era leaders for each team suffices.

Those Pirates were a pretty good team. With Arky and the Waner brothers, they had three Hall of famers at their peaks and the end-of-career Pie Traynor made it four HOF's total.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

so was pepper martin in the thirties, do we still talk about him a lot, nope

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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so was pepper martin in the thirties, do we still talk about him a lot, nope

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i think of the two brown sways to the under appreciated 25 years from now and CS the other way...this is a opinion based issue though so its not worth arguing over.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Lloyd Waner might be the worst HOF pick ever. Paul Waner was a great player. Traynor was always overrated; he was considered the greatest third baseman ever long after Eddie Mathews retired. I doubt he's in the top ten.

Vaughn was always the odd man out. I used to pore over baseball stats and I have to admit that I, too, hadn't known about him until I read Bill James.

Side note: Will Bill James make the HOF? I hope so.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Lloyd Waner might be the worst HOF pick ever. Paul Waner was a great player. Traynor was always overrated; he was considered the greatest third baseman ever long after Eddie Mathews retired. I doubt he's in the top ten.

Vaughn was always the odd man out. I used to pore over baseball stats and I have to admit that I, too, hadn't known about him until I read Bill James.

Side note: Will Bill James make the HOF? I hope so.

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The Historical Baseball Abstract is like the best book ever. Didn't James make a pretty strong case that the best player of the 80s was Wade Boggs and the 90s was Craig Biggio? (Biggio is absolutely a guy who no one will talk about 50 years from now, btw.)

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Jim Bottomley and Heinie Manush are other excellent, forgotten, players who come to mind from this era. Subject should probably have its' own thread. Excellent example as far as Curt Schilling.

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Jim Bottomley wasn't that great when you consider his lack of power and the high average BA of that era.

Arky Vaughan was a much better player. I'm a total early era stats nerd so I know about he and Ross Barnes, but just how good he was, I couldn't've said that. Gabby Hartnett's 1935 was great as well.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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The Historical Baseball Abstract is like the best book ever. Didn't James make a pretty strong case that the best player of the 80s was Wade Boggs and the 90s was Craig Biggio? (Biggio is absolutely a guy who no one will talk about 50 years from now, btw.)

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No, IIRC James argued Bonds was far and away the best player of the 90s; he then claimed Biggio would probably be #2.

If this thread is morphing into a thread of under appreciated players, then I'd like to throw Rube Waddell's name into the hat. Yes, he's a HOFer -- so I don't want to claim he's been completely overlooked; and yes, he was the early 20th century's Dennis Rodman, so I don't doubt that his antics have cost him some measure of acclaim. IMO, though, he was a dominant pitcher -- probably the dominant pitcher of the era -- who's name never seems to be brought up when discussing the game's greats. It was the deadball era, no doubt -- so I won't trot out his ERA and other peripherals -- but I'm not sure there's even a modern comparable to this:

"Waddell led his league in strikeouts in every season from 1902 through 1907. During this six-year stretch, he had 1,576 strikeouts, while the aggregate total of all six runners-up was 1,180."

Waddell's ability to get hitters to swing and miss is especially impressive considering the dominant strategy of batters at the time was predicated around making contact, and striking out was a source of great embarrassment for a hitter.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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That brings up a couple more guys: Ron Santo and Darrell Evans

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I had an argument a while ago about the HOF virtues of Evans vs Jim Rice, and my brother could not fathom that it was even close - he thought Rice was way ahead. but unless you saw/knew the peak 70's version of Evans, you would think so too.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Arky Vaughn pwned on Tony LaRussa Baseball 2 for PC.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Arky Vaughn pwned on Tony LaRussa Baseball 2 for PC.

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this game was awesome. maury wills on tlub generic turf ftw. any idea where i could get this online?

also i always confuse rube waddell with rube marquard, marquard being the guy who probably did not deserve the HOF.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Arky Vaughn pwned on Tony LaRussa Baseball 2 for PC.

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this game was awesome. maury wills on tlub generic turf ftw. any idea where i could get this online?

also i always confuse rube waddell with rube marquard, marquard being the guy who probably did not deserve the HOF.

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link

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

I generally agree, but the reason I brought up pepper martin was because he was in 3 WS and was known for his heroics and one could draw a similar parralell between him and schilling

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

Smell the Glove -

awesome - I am definitely taking advantage of that. I don't know who's gimmick account you are but I like you.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

My favorite story from the Historical Abstract:

During the Second World War, the White Sox (I think) had a player named Gantenbein (or something like that). Mediocre player and when the players returned from the war he lost his job and took a job as a doorman at the Waldorf Astoria in New York.

One day the great Yankee catcher Bill Dickey comes out from dinner at the hotel and is waiting for his ride. He notices the doorman and says to him, "Do I know you?" "Sure," says Gantenbein."

"Yeah," says Dickey. "I don't remember your name but we used to pitch you low and outside."

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

A few thoughts;

- On Waddell being the dominant pitcher of his era, I'd say he was Nolan Ryan to Christy Mathewson's Tom Seaver. Three Finger Brown and Ed Walsh say hello.

- I love the question of whether Bill James will get into the hall. He obviously should, since he was mostly responsible for the popularization of sabrmetrics.

- Agreed that Lloyd Waner only got into the hall by virtue of nepotism, but I'd put him up against Rabit Maranville or Joe Tinker (without looking at the stats before posting this). Maranville had a three-digit ops+ three times in a twenty-one year career, while Tinker needed twelve years to finally score a SLG in the .400s and didn't walk.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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- I love the question of whether Bill James will get into the hall. He obviously should, since he was mostly responsible for the popularization of sabrmetrics.



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he would definitely be a controversial pick and one that may take some time to get in the hall as the old school baseball writers pass away and give up their voting rights.

He certainly deserves to be in, but it will probably take a while for him to get in, and he might end up getting in posthumously as it will take time for people to realize his impact on how modern baseball is viewed

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

It would probably be a good speech also. Not Manny-esque, but still pretty good.

craig

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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Vaughn was always the odd man out. I used to pore over baseball stats and I have to admit that I, too, hadn't known about him until I read Bill James.

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Didn't you ever see him play?

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

schilling is very similar to david cone
obviosuly schilling will be remebered for the bloody suck be hes the best starting pitcher in baseball in the last 15-20 years.


Rube Waddel was basically a functional retard. Ty Cobb used to send fire trucks to drive the by stadium when waddel was getting ready to pitch and waddel would go chase the fire trucks. Opponents also gave him toys to distract him.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

also in the one season that walks were counted as hits tip oneil was given credit for batting .492 although when walks were removed it became 430ish

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

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also in the one season that walks were counted as hits tip oneil was given credit for batting .492 although when walks were removed it became 430ish

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In retrospect, a very misleading choice, which has lead to all kinds of wrongheadedness throughout the years...

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

I used to date his great-aunt. Helluva stud horse player, IIRC.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kevin Brown had one of the most insane peaks ever.

Another great example: Tris Speaker. How about Dick Allen?

If you want a modern day example, Gary Sheffield.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think I buy Speaker in this debate. He's constantly mentioned with Cobb, Mays, Mantle et al in greatest cf talks and has been in my 30 years as a ballfan. Little known fact; Speaker was the only known member of both the BBHOF and the KKK, but this is back when the Klan was basically a social club.

Here's a few others for you guys to check out:

Sam Crawford
Ed Walsh
Joe McGinnity
Old Hoss Radbourne (you'll like his '84 season)
Three-finger brown
Ed Walsh
Jack Chesbro
Heinie Manusch
Chuck Klein
Al Simmons
Gabby Hartnett
Rube Marguard ('Rube' was essentionally 'donkey' a century ago)
Sliding Billy Hamilton
Hugh Duffy
Tuck Turner (Look at his 1894 and realize he was his team's fourth outfielder. Then, look tat he other three.)
Kid Nichols
Ken Williams (The first 30-30 man by decades)
Smokey Joe Wood
Eddie Collins
Home Run Baker
Adie joss
Hal newhouser
Dazzy Vance (Note the age at which he started pitching)
babe Herman
Johnny Mize (HR/SO)
Tip O'Neill

Used to be I could have built this list off the top of my head. now, a quick look at the year by year ops/era leaders for each team suffices.

Those Pirates were a pretty good team. With Arky and the Waner brothers, they had three Hall of famers at their peaks and the end-of-career Pie Traynor made it four HOF's total.

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a very large number of the players you listed are products of their era.

Re: Arky Vaughan
 

True. most of the names stuck with me from a childhood that didn't include OpS+, EqA, et al. Still fun to look at.