200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $67.10
BB: $109.40
UTG: $168.00
UTG+1: $155.80
MP1: $236.00
MP2: $47.00
CO: $277.10
QTip (BTN): $413.20

Reads: <font color="blue">villain is CO he seems decent overall; however, probably a bit too aggressive and does some funny things now and then..but don't we all. We've been in tangles all night, and I've been 3 betting him pretty light in the blinds and so forth. I call with a lot of hands PF with these stacks.</font>

Preflop: QTip is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 Players)
4 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $8.00</font>, QTip calls $8.00, 2 folds

Flop: ($19) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $10.00</font>, QTip calls $10.00

Turn: ($39) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $32.00</font>, QTip calls $32.00

River: ($103) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, QTip checks

Pot Size: $103.00 ($3 Rake)

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

With history described i would definitely 3bet this preflop. But as played i like the rest of the hand.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

Seems allright. If your dont raise the flop, then this is your best line. There is no value in a river bet unless you really think hes going to pay you with KJ/QJ. It might also help your image and make him hesitant to pound out some bets when you have draws.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

Are you ever calling the river if he bets?

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

I didn't plan on it.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

who is villain

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

It really looks like he has 77-1010 here, or KQh. I like a bet of $50 on the river. If there has been alot of play between you guys, he might call thinking you have a missed FD or or a 78 type of hand.

result??

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

tXipiTi

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

bet river, you have the best hand. let him figure out with what he can call

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

I think he has air more than anything else here, so I don't see value in a river bet.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

Qtip-

Why no 3-bet preflop?

By only calling, you are giving him infinite odds to hit the flop. I don't think queens are a hand that you want to slowplay from start to finish.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

Yeah, I don't like the river bet either. There are maybe 2 hands he can call with and a bunch he can induce a bluff with. He just needs a weak A to beat us, which matches his line well enough.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

call pre is fine. Definitely 2/3s + of the time i'd 3bet here just bc of ur image.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip-

Why no 3-bet preflop?

By only calling, you are giving him infinite odds to hit the flop. I don't think queens are a hand that you want to slowplay from start to finish.

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I wouldn't say they are infinite since he did put in a raise. It would be infinite if he put in nothing.

Nevertheless, I am curious the reasoning for no preflop raise.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip-

Why no 3-bet preflop?

By only calling, you are giving him infinite odds to hit the flop. I don't think queens are a hand that you want to slowplay from start to finish.

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You aren't giving him any implied odds by calling. The reason is because u are calling with a wide range that consists of 22-AA AK AQs and suited connectors.

What you are however doing by coldcalling with QQ+ some of the time here, is depolarizing your range on the flop and turn. Where it once was underpair or set, a range that is very easy to play against from villains standpoint, now becomes underpair, set, top pair, overcards/draws, overpairs, a range that is much more tricky to optimally play against out of position.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

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I think a lot of times we tailor our "balancing acts" towards aggression, whereas I think there are a lot of times when we can tailor it towards passiveness. We have deep stacks here, and I can use my position to my advantage here. The larger the pot gets in porportion to the stacks, the less my position means to me. I can really get him thinking in these spots with plays like this which allow me to get free cards and showdowns with other hands and so forth. I'm calling here with a LOT of hands PF. I would be doing so with suited 2 gappers, suited aces, unsuited connectors, pps and so forth.


That's my $.02 anyway.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

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I think a lot of times we tailor our "balancing acts" towards aggression, whereas I think there are a lot of times when we can tailor it towards passiveness. We have deep stacks here, and I can use my position to my advantage here. The larger the pot gets in porportion to the stacks, the less my position means to me. I can really get him thinking in these spots with plays like this which allow me to get free cards and showdowns with other hands and so forth. I'm calling here with a LOT of hands PF. I would be doing so with suited 2 gappers, suited aces, unsuited connectors, pps and so forth.


That's my $.02 anyway.

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So, you are normally raising this preflop but you occasionally will flat call against an aggressive player?

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

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I think a lot of times we tailor our "balancing acts" towards aggression, whereas I think there are a lot of times when we can tailor it towards passiveness. We have deep stacks here, and I can use my position to my advantage here. The larger the pot gets in porportion to the stacks, the less my position means to me. I can really get him thinking in these spots with plays like this which allow me to get free cards and showdowns with other hands and so forth. I'm calling here with a LOT of hands PF. I would be doing so with suited 2 gappers, suited aces, unsuited connectors, pps and so forth.


That's my $.02 anyway.

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So, you are normally raising this preflop but you occasionally will flat call against an aggressive player?

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Sure.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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That's the point I'm making. Yes, I'm setting him up for a big hand. But yes, I'm also setting him up here for other hands where I'll want less money in on the flop and turn.

I agree about the river, which is why I didn't bet it.

Also, I think I'm probably a bit too aggressive. I run about 16/12/3.8. If I reraised PF and he folded or c/fed to a cbet, there wouldn't be much to post about it. I do like to post hands that I think will generate good discussion, which I think has been accomplished here.

Also, in terms of passive, check out my flopped straight on mono board here, and call me agrodonk there.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

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If you look at the stack sizes, do you still wish he pushes over a $25 reraise?

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

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If you look at the stack sizes, do you still wish he pushes over a $25 reraise?

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Bad Jacob.... I slapped myself on the wrist for not remembering the stack sizes.

I think it makes it much closer between a 3-bet and a call with the stacks being a little bit deeper. If the stacks are 200BB deep are you 3-betting then because you will have more room to work postflop?

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

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If you look at the stack sizes, do you still wish he pushes over a $25 reraise?

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Bad Jacob.... I slapped myself on the wrist for not remembering the stack sizes.

I think it makes it much closer between a 3-bet and a call with the stacks being a little bit deeper. If the stacks are 200BB deep are you 3-betting then because you will have more room to work postflop?

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That makes some sense too. However, this hand for me was more about the times I cc with A7s clubs or 79s clubs or whatever.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

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If you look at the stack sizes, do you still wish he pushes over a $25 reraise?

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Bad Jacob.... I slapped myself on the wrist for not remembering the stack sizes.

I think it makes it much closer between a 3-bet and a call with the stacks being a little bit deeper. If the stacks are 200BB deep are you 3-betting then because you will have more room to work postflop?

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That makes some sense too. However, this hand for me was more about the times I cc with A7s clubs or 79s clubs or whatever.

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IMO, a little balancing is fine. I think it is important to consider whether this guy is worth what you are giving up. However, since the stack sizes are the way they are it may be the best play to call here regardless of the fact because your SPR is going to be bad after a 3-bet.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

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If you look at the stack sizes, do you still wish he pushes over a $25 reraise?

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Bad Jacob.... I slapped myself on the wrist for not remembering the stack sizes.

I think it makes it much closer between a 3-bet and a call with the stacks being a little bit deeper. If the stacks are 200BB deep are you 3-betting then because you will have more room to work postflop?

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That makes some sense too. However, this hand for me was more about the times I cc with A7s clubs or 79s clubs or whatever.

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IMO, a little balancing is fine. I think it is important to consider whether this guy is worth what you are giving up. However, since the stack sizes are the way they are it may be the best play to call here regardless of the fact because your SPR is going to be bad after a 3-bet.

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I don't think we're giving up near as much as people are thinking. This guy is too aggressive, and I'll make up for that and possibly then some by his two/three barrels.

In this hand, he had 78o.

I think we both played the hand quite well.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip from most of the hands you post you seem to be a very passive player, but mayb thats just what u post here. If youve been 3betting him light most of the night, isnt this essentially the hand youre setting him up for? Whats the point of betting the river, theres really nothing that you beat.

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I think this is a good point. I can see that playing QQ this way against an aggressive player can be fine, but with your history it may be best to 3-bet here and hope he pushes.

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If you look at the stack sizes, do you still wish he pushes over a $25 reraise?

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Bad Jacob.... I slapped myself on the wrist for not remembering the stack sizes.

I think it makes it much closer between a 3-bet and a call with the stacks being a little bit deeper. If the stacks are 200BB deep are you 3-betting then because you will have more room to work postflop?

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That makes some sense too. However, this hand for me was more about the times I cc with A7s clubs or 79s clubs or whatever.

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IMO, a little balancing is fine. I think it is important to consider whether this guy is worth what you are giving up. However, since the stack sizes are the way they are it may be the best play to call here regardless of the fact because your SPR is going to be bad after a 3-bet.

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I don't think we're giving up near as much as people are thinking. This guy is too aggressive, and I'll make up for that and possibly then some by his two/three barrels.

In this hand, he had 78o.

I think we both played the hand quite well.

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I agree, in fact. I am thinking that in this particular spot you may be better off just calling regardless due to the stack sizes.

The giving up stuff was just mean as a more general statement. If the stacks were 100BB I think a 3-bet may make more sense as you can commit easily if he pushes given your past. In that case I think you would be giving up a lot if you just called. Now, if he was just aggressive but you hadn't been 3-betting him my opinion would change again.

There, now I'm not so vague! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

your always beat in that spot against xtipi

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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your always beat in that spot against xtipi

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what is this referring to? if q/tip 3 bets and xtipi 4/bet shoves?

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

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I think a lot of times we tailor our "balancing acts" towards aggression, whereas I think there are a lot of times when we can tailor it towards passiveness. We have deep stacks here, and I can use my position to my advantage here. The larger the pot gets in porportion to the stacks, the less my position means to me. I can really get him thinking in these spots with plays like this which allow me to get free cards and showdowns with other hands and so forth. I'm calling here with a LOT of hands PF. I would be doing so with suited 2 gappers, suited aces, unsuited connectors, pps and so forth.


That's my $.02 anyway.

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It's an interesting point. I think that by cold calling preflop, you are essentially converting your QQ into 99/TT - a hand that can't really take much postflop heat.

I'm not sure that I see how you gain value against his range by coldcalling. OK, you get some extra value from hands like AT/AJ that will pay you off a bit when the kicker hits, but you lose value to weaker aces or kings that will fold preflop to reraise. You say that you can get use your position to get him in difficult spots, but is it not just as likely that you will end up in a tricky spot with an ace or K on the board (as actually happened). Lets not forget that the object of the game is not to get him thinking (he might be a very good thinker, after all), it is to get him to put his money in with the worst of it.

At the end of the day, you have a strong preflop holding, it can't be that wrong to try to get money in when you are definitely ahead.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

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I think a lot of times we tailor our "balancing acts" towards aggression, whereas I think there are a lot of times when we can tailor it towards passiveness. We have deep stacks here, and I can use my position to my advantage here. The larger the pot gets in porportion to the stacks, the less my position means to me. I can really get him thinking in these spots with plays like this which allow me to get free cards and showdowns with other hands and so forth. I'm calling here with a LOT of hands PF. I would be doing so with suited 2 gappers, suited aces, unsuited connectors, pps and so forth.


That's my $.02 anyway.

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It's an interesting point. I think that by cold calling preflop, you are essentially converting your QQ into 99/TT - a hand that can't really take much postflop heat.

I'm not sure that I see how you gain value against his range by coldcalling. OK, you get some extra value from hands like AT/AJ that will pay you off a bit when the kicker hits, but you lose value to weaker aces or kings that will fold preflop to reraise. You say that you can get use your position to get him in difficult spots, but is it not just as likely that you will end up in a tricky spot with an ace or K on the board (as actually happened). Lets not forget that the object of the game is not to get him thinking (he might be a very good thinker, after all), it is to get him to put his money in with the worst of it.

At the end of the day, you have a strong preflop holding, it can't be that wrong to try to get money in when you are definitely ahead.

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I'm not sure I can articulate this, and I may be off some, but this thinking does not seem suited to NL...perhaps in a while I'll think of how to phrase what I'm thinking here.

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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If you've been 3-betting him a lot I'd just 3-bet here and hope he pushes over the top with a weaker hand.

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definitely. This is correct and I don't think there is a good second best option. As played I might vbet the rive for like $60.

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I think a lot of times we tailor our "balancing acts" towards aggression, whereas I think there are a lot of times when we can tailor it towards passiveness. We have deep stacks here, and I can use my position to my advantage here. The larger the pot gets in porportion to the stacks, the less my position means to me. I can really get him thinking in these spots with plays like this which allow me to get free cards and showdowns with other hands and so forth. I'm calling here with a LOT of hands PF. I would be doing so with suited 2 gappers, suited aces, unsuited connectors, pps and so forth.


That's my $.02 anyway.

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It's an interesting point. I think that by cold calling preflop, you are essentially converting your QQ into 99/TT - a hand that can't really take much postflop heat.

I'm not sure that I see how you gain value against his range by coldcalling. OK, you get some extra value from hands like AT/AJ that will pay you off a bit when the kicker hits, but you lose value to weaker aces or kings that will fold preflop to reraise. You say that you can get use your position to get him in difficult spots, but is it not just as likely that you will end up in a tricky spot with an ace or K on the board (as actually happened). Lets not forget that the object of the game is not to get him thinking (he might be a very good thinker, after all), it is to get him to put his money in with the worst of it.

At the end of the day, you have a strong preflop holding, it can't be that wrong to try to get money in when you are definitely ahead.

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I'm not sure I can articulate this, and I may be off some, but this thinking does not seem suited to NL...perhaps in a while I'll think of how to phrase what I'm thinking here.

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I'm really curious to know what you mean by this. If I'm thinking in the wrong way about this hand, I'd really like to know why. Maybe I phrased my original point badly. I suppose what I was trying to say is that I can kind of see your point in just calling, but I'm not sure it has enough value. Presumably by calling, you are trying to create a situation where your opponent will have difficult decisions OOP with relatively deep stacks. However, you did say that the villain is pretty decent - are you sure you can outplay him enough postflop to make up for the value you lose preflop (and with QQ you are giving up a fair amount preflop by not raising)?

Re: 200: Warning: A Different Line with QQ
 

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Qtip-

Why no 3-bet preflop?

By only calling, you are giving him infinite odds to hit the flop. I don't think queens are a hand that you want to slowplay from start to finish.

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You aren't giving him any implied odds by calling. The reason is because u are calling with a wide range that consists of 22-AA AK AQs and suited connectors.

What you are however doing by coldcalling with QQ+ some of the time here, is depolarizing your range on the flop and turn. Where it once was underpair or set, a range that is very easy to play against from villains standpoint, now becomes underpair, set, top pair, overcards/draws, overpairs, a range that is much more tricky to optimally play against out of position.

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I agree with Renton. Also, if we 3bet to $24 preflop lets say, he has $269 in this stack, there is $35 in the pot, and we have him covered. He has to call $16 to win $304, or 19:1. So, another downside of 3betting is bloating the pot and giving him perfect stack odds, which lets him stack us easily. With a call, we control the pot, can let him bluff of money, and can fold if he show read strength.

I tend to follow NLHETP advice which suggests calling with QQ pf most of the time, and reraising about 10-20% of the time and this is a good example of when calling is beneficial.

It seems like most people think QQ or AK is an automatic 3bet preflop like 90% of the time. I don't think this is so, but I'd like to hear the arguments in favor of this approach and maybe comments on the advantages of calling that have been discussed above.

friedace