$100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

BB is 54/20/1.8
UTG is 64/15/2

What do you put the Villains on?
Do you call all-in here?
Do you expect the BB to come along?

I'll give my thoughts later or in the morning, but wanted to know what others thought since it looks really close to me or even bad.

Bodog No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($47.50)
SB ($126.75)
BB ($162.35)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($174.80)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($108.00)</font>
MP1 ($100.00)
MP2 ($160.95)
MP3 ($61.25)
CO ($88.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.5</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls $3.50, UTG calls $3.50.

Flop: ($14) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $170.3 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ????</font>

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

Beat them into the pot.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Beat them into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, enjoy the variance

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

Their VPIP's mean they could have anything, but their AF's mean that you're behind. If BB has KQ you don't have the odds to fill up. Same goes if one or both of them has a set. You are getting a little better than 2:1... If they both have flushes, you can call. It all comes down to what they'd be betting here... reads?

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
but their AF's mean that you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the sample size is decent

they are far far more aggro than most &lt;20VPIPs

2AF with a 50VPIP is very aggro, probably something in the upper3/4 range if they were 18VPIP

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

Thank you for pointing that out.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but their AF's mean that you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the sample size is decent

they are far far more aggro than most &lt;20VPIPs

2AF with a 50VPIP is very aggro, probably something in the upper3/4 range if they were 18VPIP

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on this? I want to get my hands around it to understand fully what you are saying.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but their AF's mean that you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the sample size is decent

they are far far more aggro than most &lt;20VPIPs

2AF with a 50VPIP is very aggro, probably something in the upper3/4 range if they were 18VPIP

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on this? I want to get my hands around it to understand fully what you are saying.

[/ QUOTE ]
Someone with a very high VPIP is seeing a ton of flops, and most of the time he's going to have nothing on the flop. It's harder to bet/raise when you have air or weak draws most of the time.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

what if he just plays hit or miss poker? his stats would not reflect that.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
what if he just plays hit or miss poker? his stats would not reflect that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well it's really hard to play "hit or miss" when you have a VPP over 50%. Quite often they hit something like mid pair, top pair no kicker, or draws, which they're not folding, but not raising either because they're calling stations.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

wow, i learnt something from this thread. So how is AF calculated?
Is there a formula to calculate someones relative aggression using vpip and AF?

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow, i learnt something from this thread. So how is AF calculated?
Is there a formula to calculate someones relative aggression using vpip and AF?

[/ QUOTE ]

(bet + raise )/call

so technically if they just fold a lot(since folding isn't factored in it) they can have an abnormally high AF, but vast majority of 50VPIPs don't turn nitty postflop, so he's betting a lot to have an AF of 2

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow, i learnt something from this thread. So how is AF calculated?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's just the times they bet/raise over the times they call. Folding is not involved.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a formula to calculate someones relative aggression using vpip and AF?

[/ QUOTE ]
Usually players with higher VPIP tend to have lower AF, but it can vary from player to player. Some uber-nits have huge AF's because they play so few hands that they have overpairs and sets a large% of the time when they show strength.

Really loose players tend to have low AF's because they flop hands that they are likely to call with, rather than raise with. If someone has BOTH a huge VPIP and a huge AF, they are basically maniacs who are trying to win every pot. You can stack off against them with really weak made hands because they will usually have worse.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

I would certainly say call here. As for BB, I would not expect him to call, but unless he instacalls I probably am glad to see him come along.

I'll always remember a hand against 2 maniacs when I first started at PS when I flopped a set of 4's on monotone board, got a pot sized bet and I made an enormous allinraise b/c i was playing very scared.
Both of them called my allin; they had the nut and 2nd nut flush draws. They hit.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

why is this even close?

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

Call and suck out obv.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

My understanding of VPIP vs AF has deepened. Thank you master Bottomset!

I never really thought out the fact of how hard it is to have a high VPIP and maintain a high AF. My path to learning still lies ahead of me.

FYI, I put the BB on 44 and the UTG 50% on a made flush, 50% on a random hand like TP. His limp call really perplexed me, so he was on a wide range. I put no one on KK for the higher set due to there not being a 3 bet pf which any sensible human being would have done in the UTG's spot and either of them would have done w/ their high pfr%'s.

Results: I called, BB folded, UTG turned over 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]-7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the made flush. Turn is a brick and the river pairs the 4 FTW!!! BB admitted in the chat box that he had the 3rd best hand here with top 2 pair.

Landlord theorum holds strong that on a 3 suited flop, donk overbets = strong made hands. I did see one exception last night, a guy donk overbet w/ a str8 flush draw, but that's relatively equal to a strong made hand.

Re: $100NL - QQ, M-Set, All Heart flop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call and suck out obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

told you so [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]