Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

These are two similar spots. I got both wrong. I figured maybe i could sort some concepts out by posting them together, see if you guys could tease out what makes one hand's play different from the other.

Live 20/40 in AC. Saturday afternoon.

Hand 1:
Folded to me on Button, I raise with KT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

SB 3-bets (he's 20'sish white kid, seems like the kind of guy that read Stox book). BB folds. I call.

Flop 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

He bets, I call.

Turn 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bets. What's my best plan from here for turn/river, if I hit river, and if I miss river.


Hand 2:

Folded to me in CO, I raise with AT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Button (guy from previous hand is walking. this is his friend. they've been talking a lot of poker talk. this villain is aggro. seems to 3-bet preflop more than your cards should allow you to, but has only shown me AA, and KJs in the 45 minutes he's been at the table.) 3-bets. Blinds fold, I call.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I call.

Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Best plan from here for turn/river, and please include what to do for rivers that hit and miss.


Thank you for you comments.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

I'll probably get this wrong as well, but here goes...

hand 1: I think I'd raise the flop and either take a free turn card (folding the river u/i), or bet the turn depending on what card came and how my opponent reacted to the raise (I think I'd bet this particular turn card).

As played, I'd just call the turn. Fold the river if we miss, call a T, raise a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K.

hand 2: I'd check-raise this flop and lead most turns. You've got a ton of outs to a strong hand, and you'll put a lot of pressure on a small PP.

As played, I think I might c/r the turn if you think this guy can lay down a hand. I would also consider calling the river u/i if he is pretty aggro.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
SB 3-bets (he's 20'sish white kid, seems like the kind of guy that read Stox book)

[/ QUOTE ]

Then he seems like the kind you can bluff. Find a raise. If you didn't do it on the flop, you can certainly do it on the turn. If you raised and are called on the turn, you can value bet a K, T or [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but he's probably committed to a showdown, so I wouldn't bluff if you missed.

Hand 2:

You have a hand you can give some decent action to. Gutshot+over+nut flush draw? Just check-raise the flop and he may well lay down an underpair right away.

Plan for bricked river? Well, your way you have no idea where you're at. I guess look him up, but I feel queasy doing that against anyone but maniacs. But if you put in some aggressive action and get called, your river miss decision should be a piece of cake.

Garland

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.

Hand 2: Is there anyone here that would consider 4-betting PF against this particular villian? ("this villain is aggro. seems to 3-bet preflop more than your cards should allow you to")

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I would 4-bet pf against this villain.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I would 4-bet pf against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it wrong to want to four-bet both of these preflop? Anyway that's neither here nor there.

I don't know if its right, but I'd raise both of these flops and probably keep firing most turns.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

If I was going to 4 bet, Id 4 bet in hand #1 but not hand #2.

Anyway, in hand #1 raising the flop is best because a lot of his range missed that flop and you standard a good chance of winning the pot against a better K or an A. Fire the turn UI if he calls the flop. The value you get from winning the pot with the worst hand far outweighs the fraction of a bet you lose when he calls or raises.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]

If I was going to 4 bet, Id 4 bet in hand #1 but not hand #2.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was also thinking that hand 1 was a clearer 4bet than hand 2.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

I'm not aggro enough to 4-bet in these spots preflop, but Hand 1 is definitely better IMO. Hand 2 you're out of position, and button has to be re-stealing to have a weak hand. Hand 1, villain may be just 3-betting you light to keep you from picking on his blinds so much.

Hand 1: I agree you definitely have to raise somewhere. Raising flop is cheaper, but looks weaker. I can't imagine many people continuing with no pair if you pop the turn, but your bluff will cost you more. If some kind of big card hits the turn (A/Q/J), I think a turn raise will be more effective.

Hand 2: You could play it any which way depending on opponent. If your opponent is suspicious, I don't think you're going to get any pair to fold unless it gets scarier on the turn (A/J/T vs. his 77/88/99) in which case you're going to be ahead anyway. The board is super-draw heavy.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

You're right in the 4-bet in hand 1 in that you'd like to have the fold equity in hand 1 by 4 betting. Reason I said hand 2 was because of OP's read on villian.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

Hand 1: SB is betting 100% of his range here so his flop bet means nothing. You have more than enough equity to raise the flop for value b/c you have 15 outs very often. If he 3 bets you should call and raise a heart for value. If K hits on the turn, call and raise the river. If he just calls your raise, you've gotta fire again on the turn. There are a lot of hands that will call your raise only to fold to a turn bet UI. I'd also fire again on the river if its a blank b/c you can def fold hands like Ax, KJ, and KQ w/another river bet which may have called the turn intending to c/f the river UI.

As played I think you should raise the turn. Again, this guy has A high a lot and while getting 3 bet sux, you can get him to lay down a lot of hands that are ahead of you or have 6 outs to call with. Getting 3 bet puts your in a tough spot but you're still likely drawing to 12 outs.

Hand 2: Again raise the flop. What you're failing to recognize in these 2 hands the pr aggressor will bet the flop blind so take advantage of that. He could be 3 betting w/88 or TT and will be hating life if you c/r him. So I c/r and barrell the turn. Most of thse guys aren't sophisicated enough to call your flop bet and raise the turn for a free showdown so you will know exactly where you are at all times. W/drawing hands HU you've gotta make a play for the pot and put people in tough spots. I prefer to do it on the flop b/c our draws have the most equity and its cheaper than semibluffing the turn. This will be very good for your metagame when you hit your draw or get caught bluffing.

As played this hand becomes much tougher. C/r'ing the turn would look real powerful but you've gotta do it against the right player. Getting 3 bet here would make your puke but I think you win the pot often enough to make it +EV. Since you did take the passive line here, I don't mind calling here and playing it strait foward on the river. As a general rule I don't like to make plays on the turn unless I have a read that my opponent is scared of me or capable of making a lay down.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
If K hits on the turn, call and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in this point, and I think I agree. Do you think he is getting away from some of his range that he'll valuebet on the river (99-QQ) sometimes if we raise the turn? If I'm not off, as a coralary, shouldn't we be raising Queen and Ace turn cards? All this assumes that the action on the flop goes b/r/3b

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If K hits on the turn, call and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in this point, and I think I agree. Do you think he is getting away from some of his range that he'll valuebet on the river (99-QQ) sometimes if we raise the turn? If I'm not off, as a coralary, shouldn't we be raising Queen and Ace turn cards? All this assumes that the action on the flop goes b/r/3b

[/ QUOTE ]

The b/3b is a very strong move so if we raise a K on the turn we practically define our hands. On top of that if we do get 3 bet we have to call b/c of our outs. If we raise the river we can confidently fold to a 3 bet and we also might be able to get him to cc the river w/QQ or worse where he would have folded to our turn raise. On top of that if he is bluffing we making the most outta him by letting him barrell.

I don't think I'd want to raise an A or Q b/c he's calling the river too often for us to bluff.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

hand 1 - given your comment on Stoxx, i believe there are a few hands in the villain's range that you beat now, K9, K7, K6, QJ, QT, JT...so i think its justified to call down---but given that calling down is okay, i think its even better to get those two remaining bets in on the turn, and perhaps win the hand now, or if called buy a free showdown if you don't improve. If he 3 bets the turn, fold. If you improve, raise (either flush, K, or T). If he calls and you don't improve, then he raises the river, fold.

hand 2 - your read on the villain is that he is aggressive preflop, but only shows down solid hands...your only pressure on him was preflop, and he pushed back to test you...seemingly he has the initiative; the most severe test you can put him to is to check-raise here--if he 3 bets, fold; if he calls, then check/fold the river...as you said he is aggressive but only takes to showdown his good hands...lets play it based on your reads...

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

Is villain not smart enough to see us trying to buy a free card on the flop in hand 1? If I were villain I'm betting out on that turn a lot.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1 - given your comment on Stoxx, i believe there are a few hands in the villain's range that you beat now, K9, K7, K6, QJ, QT, JT...so i think its justified to call down---but given that calling down is okay, i think its even better to get those two remaining bets in on the turn, and perhaps win the hand now, or if called buy a free showdown if you don't improve. If he 3 bets the turn, fold. If you improve, raise (either flush, K, or T). If he calls and you don't improve, then he raises the river, fold.

hand 2 - your read on the villain is that he is aggressive preflop, but only shows down solid hands...your only pressure on him was preflop, and he pushed back to test you...seemingly he has the initiative; the most severe test you can put him to is to check-raise here--if he 3 bets, fold; if he calls, then check/fold the river...as you said he is aggressive but only takes to showdown his good hands...lets play it based on your reads...

[/ QUOTE ]

We have flush draws most likely to the nuts in hands 1 and 2. Any line ending with folding before the river is just not a good one. In hand 2 he can certainly be 3 betting w/good K's and might even do it w/any K. In hand 1 our turn raise might look suspicious enough for villain to 3 bet an overair when we raise turn. Either way get to the river with whatever line we choose.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

Thank you all for your responses.

In hand 1 I raised the turn, and villain 3-bet. I called. River was a brick. He bet. I folded. He told me he had AA, and I beleive him based on sitting next to him for awhile, and talking to him a decent amount.

Most of you guys suggested making a move on the flop instead of the turn, which certainly would have played out better here. I thought to myself that I could get villain to fold more often if I raised the turn instead of the flop, but that seems like an overall worse line, as displayed by the outcome.

Hand 2 : I called the turn. The river was a brick, and i check/folded. Villain later told me he had J9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and I believe him too. I check/folded the river because I really thought he would never bluff the river. I should have considered that he saw me fold enough during the session that it was time for a call down. Of course action by me on the flop, or maybe the turn, would have been a better line that just a "call down".

Thanks again guys.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you all for your responses.

In hand 1 I raised the turn, and villain 3-bet. I called. River was a brick. He bet. I folded. He told me he had AA, and I beleive him based on sitting next to him for awhile, and talking to him a decent amount.

Most of you guys suggested making a move on the flop instead of the turn, which certainly would have played out better here. I thought to myself that I could get villain to fold more often if I raised the turn instead of the flop, but that seems like an overall worse line, as displayed by the outcome.

Hand 2 : I called the turn. The river was a brick, and i check/folded. Villain later told me he had J9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and I believe him too. I check/folded the river because I really thought he would never bluff the river. I should have considered that he saw me fold enough during the session that it was time for a call down. Of course action by me on the flop, or maybe the turn, would have been a better line that just a "call down".

Thanks again guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

The smaller folding equity on the flop is made up for by bigger pot equity and the ability to figure out where you are and save money on the big streets

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

Hand1) I think the more important question would be; do you think he thinks you have read Stox book as well? Since it is unlikely that either of you have hit this board I don't think you will have much fold equity by raising the flop here. He may just call you down with uninproved overs or three bet you and regain the initiative. I would call the flop and raise the turn. Now you are giving him a chance to throw away hands that beat you. If he reraises or calls and you don't improve it is an easy fold on the river.

Hand2) Check-raise flop, bet turn, and reevaluate on the river.

Re: Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands
 

For me I raise/cap the flop and b-b unless faced with further aggression on the turn a good percentage of the time. I do this b/c my style is to jam draws and the nuts and I like to pressure people to make a mistake. So if you haven't recently jammed a FD this would be a good opportunity to do so. If you have been jamming a lot of draws recenlty than you FE is zero and I play the waititing to hit game.
I try and think of how my opponent is going to perceive me. If he sees me as a trappy player than jamming the flop is going to tell him I have FD+overs. Then you would be better off waiting for the turn.