Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

I know there are a few car salesmen out here...have read a few solid posts in the past where you guys have bantered back and forth on the business. So, I have a question on smoething I'm dealing with today.

Three weeks ago, I assisted my sister in buying a Toyota...she's younger, not as wise to hard sale tactics, she was nervous, etc. Anyway, went to our local Toyota dealer - as she has a discount - and she purchased a brand new Camry.

Anyway, this is my sister's first new car purchase, she has so-so credit (has repaired it dramatically in the past year), and, while I was concered that she was going to get seriously run over by these guys...everything appeared to be on the up and up. We sealed what appeared to be a good deal and left three hours later.

Anyway, fast forward to yesterday...Toyota financing calls and says they now need SIX REFERENCES and that they have a question about something on her credit report. WTF?

Understand they need to cross i's and dot t's..but three weeks later..after she left the lot with the car?!?!

This smells an awful lot to me like they're trying to get more upfront money from her. I went through something with Isuzu years ago where they let me go off the lot with a car, called four days later and told me they had concerns and needed $4,000 down if I wanted to keep the car.

I talked to a friend back then who was a dealer and he said THAT was a definite tactic that was used...basically, get the buyer out the door, let him/her fall in love with the car and then jack them up for more up front cash a few days later. Apparently there's some language that gives them the right to pull this kind of stunt.

Anyway...is this what I'm dealing with here? Does this sound to you like just crossing/dotting or does it sound like this is going to be followed up with..."We need two grand more or you need to return the car?"

Please understand I know very little about this sort of transaction...and I'm not criticizing the industry...I just know there are shady tactics sometimes used...and wondering if that's what is ahead here.

Thanks for any input you may have on this!

PS - Go Bengals!

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/billandted460.jpg

san dimas high school football rules!!!

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

It's called "Bushing" and it's completely illegal. They are trying to defraud you.

They have something like 3 business days to get the loan approved and if they can't they have to call you back, you return the car, get back your downpayment and trade-in and the contract is nullified.

http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4010596.html

Edit: Actually looks like that's applicable to Washington State Law at least. Dunno about your state.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

Here's another link
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/scams.htm#Scam1

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, fast forward to yesterday...Toyota financing calls and says they now need SIX REFERENCES and that they have a question about something on her credit report. WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tell them to go [censored] themselves. Just make damn sure she doesn't miss a single payment. They can then repossess the car and she loses everything she's paid so far.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

1) Isn't financing through a dealer asking to get ripped off?
2) I'm not sure I understand what happened. Your sis drove away with the car. Did she sign anything? What did the thing she signed say?

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

I was a finance manager in a dealership for 10 years.

The laws will vary state to state. I am only familiar with AZ and this is very common here. However, it is not a 'tactic'.

Here, we send people home in cars without having first secured financing. We're pretty good at what we do though and can very accurately judge what banks will approve and what they will not. We'll then write a contract based on that. However, occaisionaly we get it wrong and the bank will require different terms in order to approve a loan. A deal is not a deal until the contract is purchased by the financial institution. So, if the bank approval differs from what the contract is written at, we will need to write a new contract. That often means more money down or a different interest rate or even a change in the number of payments.

Of course, you do not have to sign a new contract. You can give the car back though this rarely happens because as stated above, people fall in love with the car and usually will do anything to keep it.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was a finance manager in a dealership for 10 years.

The laws will vary state to state. I am only familiar with AZ and this is very common here. However, it is not a 'tactic'.

Here, we send people home in cars without having first secured financing. We're pretty good at what we do though and can very accurately judge what banks will approve and what they will not. We'll then write a contract based on that. However, occaisionaly we get it wrong and the bank will require different terms in order to approve a loan. A deal is not a deal until the contract is purchased by the financial institution. So, if the bank approval differs from what the contract is written at, we will need to write a new contract. That often means more money down or a different interest rate or even a change in the number of payments.

Of course, you do not have to sign a new contract. You can give the car back though this rarely happens because as stated above, people fall in love with the car and usually will do anything to keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how it is for most states.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

BTW, if the bank (not the dealer) called for six references, that deal has most likey been approved and they are just lining up a way to find your sister when she stiffs them on payment.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

What would happen if you decided not to sign a new contract but had traded in your car on the first one? What if your trade-in is sold?

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

It happens. Trade-ins are not supposed to be sold until the contract has actually been funded by the bank. They slip thru the cracks every now and then though. It can get ugly especially if we can't get the guy approved for anything. In that case, you just negotiate a value for the car and realize that guy will hate you forever and you'll usually end up in court defending yourself. You can only recover the value of the car as long as no fraud was involved. In most cases, the dealership will bend over backwards trying to make the customer happy when this stuff happens.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

In Washington State the dealership can't do anything with your trade in (aside from getting it ready to sell) until the deal is finalized. Of course, shady dealerships probably sell the car out from under the buyer all the time, or else park it at the sales manager's house, or just put a tarp over it and leave it on the lot.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was a finance manager in a dealership for 10 years.

The laws will vary state to state. I am only familiar with AZ and this is very common here. However, it is not a 'tactic'.

Here, we send people home in cars without having first secured financing. We're pretty good at what we do though and can very accurately judge what banks will approve and what they will not. We'll then write a contract based on that. However, occaisionaly we get it wrong and the bank will require different terms in order to approve a loan. A deal is not a deal until the contract is purchased by the financial institution. So, if the bank approval differs from what the contract is written at, we will need to write a new contract. That often means more money down or a different interest rate or even a change in the number of payments.

Of course, you do not have to sign a new contract. You can give the car back though this rarely happens because as stated above, people fall in love with the car and usually will do anything to keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scumbag.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

This happened to my wife before we were married. She negotiated and held them off for as long as she could and then simply threw the car back. The dealership wasn't very happy about it but they screwed up. Meanwhile my wife got to drive a new car for a few weeks.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

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You can give the car back though this rarely happens because as stated above, people fall in love with the car and usually will do anything to keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's odd. If a dealer put my through that, I wouldn't hesitate to give the car back. Then I'd buy a similar car from a different dealer, and set up the financing up front from my bank.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can give the car back though this rarely happens because as stated above, people fall in love with the car and usually will do anything to keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's odd. If a dealer put my through that, I wouldn't hesitate to give the car back. Then I'd buy a similar car from a different dealer, and set up the financing up front from my bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, if you are ever in this position, it is because you have bad/questionable credit and you will face the same issues no matter where you buy your car. We all use the same banks and buy our cars for the same price from the same manuf. If you don't pay your bills on time and want to finance, you lose some bargaining power.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
It happens. Trade-ins are not supposed to be sold until the contract has actually been funded by the bank. They slip thru the cracks every now and then though. It can get ugly especially if we can't get the guy approved for anything. In that case, you just negotiate a value for the car and realize that guy will hate you forever and you'll usually end up in court defending yourself. You can only recover the value of the car as long as no fraud was involved. In most cases, the dealership will bend over backwards trying to make the customer happy when this stuff happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

What dealership do you work for, so I can be sure to stay the hell away from there?

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

this sparks a question i have about a friend of mine who bought a car last month. he decided on the car and arranged for financing through his bank. when it was time to do the paperwork it was discovered there was no title. he was in love w/ the car and they sold it to him w/out the title telling him theyd get it for him w/in 3 weeks.

doing it this way his bank wouldnt finance w/out the title so he had to finance through the dealer w/ what he calls a dummy loan.

he says the dealer loan is only good until the title is found and he has verbally been told he wont pay any interest on this dummy loan which has a much higher interest rate than his bank loan. once the title is found his bank loan will take effect. it's been about 6 weeks now and there is no title found yet. i advised him repeatedly not to do this but he fell in love w/ the car and had to have it.

my question: wtf?

what happens if the title is never found? the flip side of that is he's set himself up so they can find it next week, give him the title and tell him he's stuck w/ the dealer loan. anyone have any experience in a situation like this?

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
this sparks a question i have about a friend of mine who bought a car last month. he decided on the car and arranged for financing through his bank. when it was time to do the paperwork it was discovered there was no title. he was in love w/ the car and they sold it to him w/out the title telling him theyd get it for him w/in 3 weeks.

doing it this way his bank wouldnt finance w/out the title so he had to finance through the dealer w/ what he calls a dummy loan.

he says the dealer loan is only good until the title is found and he has verbally been told he wont pay any interest on this dummy loan which has a much higher interest rate than his bank loan. once the title is found his bank loan will take effect. it's been about 6 weeks now and there is no title found yet. i advised him repeatedly not to do this but he fell in love w/ the car and had to have it.

my question: wtf?

what happens if the title is never found? the flip side of that is he's set himself up so they can find it next week, give him the title and tell him he's stuck w/ the dealer loan. anyone have any experience in a situation like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I assume the person from whom the car was stolen will show up eventually and take it back.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
what happens if the title is never found?

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe they register for a new title, possibly a salvaged title, if the car doesn't come up in the database, stolen, it's free and clear.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It happens. Trade-ins are not supposed to be sold until the contract has actually been funded by the bank. They slip thru the cracks every now and then though. It can get ugly especially if we can't get the guy approved for anything. In that case, you just negotiate a value for the car and realize that guy will hate you forever and you'll usually end up in court defending yourself. You can only recover the value of the car as long as no fraud was involved. In most cases, the dealership will bend over backwards trying to make the customer happy when this stuff happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

What dealership do you work for, so I can be sure to stay the hell away from there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what I said that would make you fell that way but I have been out of the car business for many years.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

This happened to a friend of mine once. They called him approximately 2 weeks later and asked for a bunch of stuff, and ultimately said that they couldn't approve him and he had to come up with more money down or accept a higher interest rate with another lender.

He had driven the car on a couple of roadtrips and a few other places, and he told them, that's fine, but I'm bringing it back immediately and you're getting back a car with 1700 miles on it. (It was a new car with <100 miles on it when he purchased it.)

They managed to finance him at the original terms after all.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

This really doesn't answer your question, but it does illustrate that sometimes something shady is really going on.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

LOL, the last toyota we bought in AZ ended up ( after the sale, and a letter to the GM of the dealership) with a substantial check from the dealership, a custom set of wheels and tires, a new sunroof installed and full maintenance for 5 years, all because a group of convoluted lies from the salesmanager that i was able to PROVE were true and misleading, because he wrote them down.
I also got a letter asking me to never return to that delaership.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, the last toyota we bought in AZ ended up ( after the sale, and a letter to the GM of the dealership) with a substantial check from the dealership, a custom set of wheels and tires, a new sunroof installed and full maintenance for 5 years, all because a group of convoluted lies from the salesmanager that i was able to PROVE were true and misleading, because he wrote them down.
I also got a letter asking me to never return to that delaership.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf you [censored]-tease

story please

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
This happened to a friend of mine once. They called him approximately 2 weeks later and asked for a bunch of stuff, and ultimately said that they couldn't approve him and he had to come up with more money down or accept a higher interest rate with another lender.

He had driven the car on a couple of roadtrips and a few other places, and he told them, that's fine, but I'm bringing it back immediately and you're getting back a car with 1700 miles on it. (It was a new car with <100 miles on it when he purchased it.)

They managed to finance him at the original terms after all.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

This really doesn't answer your question, but it does illustrate that sometimes something shady is really going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given I think this is pretty much a scam, I've always thought that if it happened to me I would threaten with lots of letter writing (Attorney General, BBB, Newspapers, Radio/TV Problem solvers, General Manager, President of Manufacturer, etc). Then in return for me not doing that, I come in and we refinance. 0% APR, $500 under dealer invoice. [would it even work?]

I mean they tried to defraud you. I would demand a better deal than I got in the first place.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

This happened almost 5 years ago, so i dont recall the details anymore. Still have everything archieved on an old HDD somewhere,but basically...
The fact that the sales manager wrote down alot of the BS ( like this IS the true invoice price that the dealer pays for the car). He wrote a lot of this stuff down on my personal legal pad, so i was able to keep it( they tried to snag it) And that the car was in california and an additional fee was required to bring it in.( it was in mesa, i was in scottsdale). I think they knew they screwed up.

It helped that i had researched a lot on pricing before i went into the dealer. I took advantage of things that were being said, by having him write it down.
That and a threat to submit to Arizona Attorney General's Office of Consumer Fraud i think made the GM just say screw it. My letter outlining the deatils of our experience at the delaers hip was 7 pages long as i remember.

We actually bought the wheels after the fact in a seperate transaction, but THEY installed them, they rolled the car out and they had used an impact wrench on the lugs...and had filed down the inside of all the lug holes in the process. I went OFF...They couldnt argue i had done it, the car was still in the drive out of the service area, i hadnt been in it yet.
I somehow go the wheels refunded AND replaced.

They just has a really bad day.

The letter basically stated, "we thank you for your business, but in the future we suggest you consider purchasing from somehwere else", something like that. It was funny.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This happened to a friend of mine once. They called him approximately 2 weeks later and asked for a bunch of stuff, and ultimately said that they couldn't approve him and he had to come up with more money down or accept a higher interest rate with another lender.

He had driven the car on a couple of roadtrips and a few other places, and he told them, that's fine, but I'm bringing it back immediately and you're getting back a car with 1700 miles on it. (It was a new car with <100 miles on it when he purchased it.)

They managed to finance him at the original terms after all.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

This really doesn't answer your question, but it does illustrate that sometimes something shady is really going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given I think this is pretty much a scam, I've always thought that if it happened to me I would threaten with lots of letter writing (Attorney General, BBB, Newspapers, Radio/TV Problem solvers, General Manager, President of Manufacturer, etc). Then in return for me not doing that, I come in and we refinance. 0% APR, $500 under dealer invoice. [would it even work?]

I mean they tried to defraud you. I would demand a better deal than I got in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously the best way to hurt dealerships in this situation is to return the car. They lose a lot of money by having to take a car back that is now considered used. The use of threats probably won't work as well.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

someone with so -so credit probably doesnt have much money. what is she doing buying a new car thats going to depreciate in a day more than she likely has saved up in her lifetime.

but dont worry after she puts a bunch of miles on it they dont want it back. have her stand firm and only respond to written requests and do or say nothing over the phone. good luck.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
someone with so -so credit probably doesnt have much money. what is she doing buying a new car thats going to depreciate in a day more than she likely has saved up in her lifetime.

but dont worry after she puts a bunch of miles on it they dont want it back. have her stand firm and only respond to written requests and do or say nothing over the phone. good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, i mean i am surprised they think they have the leverage in this situation. A dealership in the UK does not want a used car returning to them. Once you drive it off the forecourt, you have the aces. If they leant on me i'd tell them to enjoy selling a used car at a much lower price.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once you drive it off the forecourt, you have the aces.

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What does this mean?

From context it seems like, "Once you drive the car from the dealership, you're stuck with it," but I've never heard the "aces" part used that way.

Re: Questions on buying Toyotas/Potential Car Salesman Shenanigans
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you drive it off the forecourt, you have the aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean?

From context it seems like, "Once you drive the car from the dealership, you're stuck with it," but I've never heard the "aces" part used that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he meant the dealership doesn't have the most leverage here, she does. She holds the upper hand, aces.