Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

Ok so pf is kind of bad I admit that, I think it'd be ok from the button but not as much from the SB. The rest of the hand though I feel is very interesting.

The PF raiser is a solid 23/17/2.4 TAG. The button is an aggro lag, something like 55/22/2.

The turn lead is not something I do all the time, but I know the TAG is betting Tx, JJ+, and overs+FD all the time on the flop. The LAG is similarly betting Tx and possibly 8x on the flop when it's checked to him.

On the turn when the TAG doesn't raise I know for sure he doesn't have 8x b/c there are two flush draws left and several players behind him. Similarly the LAG also doesn't have an 8 because he'd raise it and prob would've bet it on the flop. I peg the range of the TAG as flush draw/straight draw/99. I peg the range of the LAG as flush draw / straight draw because he's prob not overcalling with a low pair / 3 here on the turn.

The river comes and I'm not giving up, neither of these guys has an 8 or T and I would play 8x and Tx like this all day. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $221.25
BB: $210.10
UTG: $197.00
CO: $74.70
BTN: $246.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $7.00</font>, CO calls $7.00, BTN calls $7.00, Hero calls $6.00, BB folds

Flop: ($30) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($30) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $22.00</font>, UTG calls $22.00, CO folds, BTN calls $22.00

River: ($96) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $70.00</font>

Freeeeedooooom!


http://imagecache2.allposters.com/im...rt-Posters.jpg

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

everything except the flop is bad sorry

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

You think river is bad as well? what are they calling with?

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I agree pf is pretty questionable and turn is prob spew but on the river I think this is the best play given the action.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

the 3rd 8 seems like a bad card to bluff

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I think the agrro lag can call the turn w/a pp, and will call you here. Zeebo theorem.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I'd probably call you with AcKc here. You are repping nothing but TT and an 8, both of which are quite unlikely. 33 doesn't bet river.

Edit: I didn't realize it was 3 way on river. Your play looks a lot stronger. And squeezes UTG, the player most likely to have a hand.

Double edit: I guess you could be repping T9s or JTs or something like that.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I think if you bluff the turn you have to bluff river most of the time because it is the combo that gets you folds. That said I don't like either here. The preflop call oop is pretty bad I think.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the agrro lag can call the turn w/a pp, and will call you here. Zeebo theorem.

[/ QUOTE ]

But would the LAG overcall on the turn with a PP&lt;=7 ? I don't think so. THus I think the LAG's range after calling the turn is almost exclusively draws, plus my line looks very strong betting into two people twice.

Furthermore this isexactly how I'd play T9s+, i'd always value bet the river with Tx.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

Someone is calling w/ 77,99, and any T of course.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You think river is bad as well? what are they calling with?

[/ QUOTE ]

T obv.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

How does anyone show up with Tx here?

As for 77/99, I've bet into two people twice so I really doubt the TAG is going to call with either 77/99 especially with a player to act behind him. As for the LAG is he really overcalling on the turn with a pp of 7's or lower? I doubt it, he's not that bad. Do you disagree with these points BG?

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I hate this tbh.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

missed utg was the raiser.

Anyway, dont bluff the turn, far too many draws plus btn is a retard plus paired board. river bet &gt; turn bet. I still dont like it because of the retard

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

[ QUOTE ]
missed utg was the raiser.

Anyway, dont bluff the turn, far too many draws plus btn is a retard plus paired board. river bet &gt; turn bet. I still dont like it because of the retard

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed turn is bad. River is marginal I guess, it just sort of made sense at the time given what I thought their ranges are.

Any as for results they both folded. Afterward I thought "Man that was spewy" but the more I thought about it the more some of it seemed ok (basically just the river bet). Anyway I guess it's better to be lucky than good [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

lol, true

ive made plays sooo much worse then this. I have alot of experience in spewing chips [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does anyone show up with Tx here?

As for 77/99, I've bet into two people twice so I really doubt the TAG is going to call with either 77/99 especially with a player to act behind him. As for the LAG is he really overcalling on the turn with a pp of 7's or lower? I doubt it, he's not that bad. Do you disagree with these points BG?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I agree w/ it for the most part. I just think the LAGtard shows up any pair here too often, but nh overall if this was your thought process in the moment.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

meh

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

reallllly ? realllllllllly ? reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyy ?

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

[ QUOTE ]
reallllly ? realllllllllly ? reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyy ?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh huh

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

i check the turn, as played, it's prob close. whatever

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

river is terrible.... check/call

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

LAGtard on the river : ZOMG I has a fool housse, SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE !!!

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

like someone said, every street except flop is gross.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

Looks like a bluff that would only work against good, solid players who aren't always zeeboed.

This bluff is kinda cool in the fact that UTG's range is what you need to worry about (I think he can show up with 99 or 66 or something and call), but with button behind him (who has a looser range and probably doesn't have a pair) UTG can't call as often.

still I basically never do this. Fighting zeebo and bluffing into 2 players couldn't be +EV unless in a very good circumstance, and not sure this is quite it.

oh, and I think overbet shoving would be kinda cool here. Them having an 8 is so rare and I think shoving actually does realllly increase the amount of hands that fold to the point that it might almost be worth it to risk that much.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

OP ever heard of the zebo theorem?

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I think this sort of stuff is hardly necessary, but I kinda like it. How does PFR play? Will he check a flush draw on this flop 4-way, or is he one of those guys who sees a flush draw and automatically hits the button on the right? If the former, this gets better obviously. Even in the latter case he's often folding, so I think this is OK.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

i like to think i'm an above average hand reader and base a lot of my play off it (lol), but i think this is bad.

sure pretty much the only hand the tag is calling you with is 99. he might fold it too with someone behind it, but probably not.

problem is the other guy can show up with literally anything.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

ZEEBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOwned

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

i think UTG pretty clearly has 66/77/99 and if this river bluff works its only because UTG is not so good at hand reading and worried about BTN, who he thinks can show up with lots of random TX hands that beat him (even though as OP mentioned utg's range is vastly made up of draws)

fwiw hero's hand does look a lot like a weak T... 8Ts, 9Ts etc, so river isnt all that bad.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I like it. I think river bluff only works if you bet turn.
It doesn't have to work that often to be profitable and if your uimage is solid I don't see how they can call.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

preflop is gross. dont bluff the turn. river bet seems unprofitable. hint: after you check the flop no one likes to believe you!

also

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. I think river bluff only works if you bet turn.
It doesn't have to work that often to be profitable and if your uimage is solid I don't see how they can call

[/ QUOTE ]
The turn is worst street in my opinion. There are times where its okay to get out of line, but not in a multiway pot scenario like this.

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree pf is pretty questionable and turn is prob spew but on the river I think this is the best play given the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup.

also, 55/22 is not aggressive lag, it's "buddylisted, drooling, mouthbreathing tard"

Re: Never Give Up the bluff. Freedom!...and some hand reading.
 

I don't like preflop.

The turn is not so good. There are way too many drawing hands out there with 2 flush draws on the board. I love firing at turns that paired the board in multiway pots when the flop is checked through, but not in a spot where there is an abundance of hands that can call.

River is perfect after your turn play.