Why have Only Humans.....
 

developed into a complex society.... Why aren't there fish societies, using ATM cards, and working at Coral Reef Complexes in the ocean.... Out of all the species on earth, only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Some reasons may be:

Physically because we have large brains, prehensile thumbs and can walk upright.

Sociologically because we operate in social groups and can hunt and farm co-operatively.

Spiritually because God delegated it to us...

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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developed into a complex society.... Why aren't there fish societies, using ATM cards, and working at Coral Reef Complexes in the ocean.... Out of all the species on earth, only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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Because they were the first.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

One might argue that ants and bees have complex, highly organized, societies.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

But they don't have credit cards so wtf cares.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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developed into a complex society.... Why aren't there fish societies, using ATM cards, and working at Coral Reef Complexes in the ocean.... Out of all the species on earth, only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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Because they were the first.

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I think this answer might fly over his head.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Fish don't need to be smart to succeed in life.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Opposable thumbs = able to use tools.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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developed into a complex society.... Why aren't there fish societies, using ATM cards, and working at Coral Reef Complexes in the ocean.... Out of all the species on earth, only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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Sure they have. Haven't you ever seen Shark Tale?

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Actually if you compare to them to say...rocks, most life on earth have pretty damn complex societies.

And yes, I'm both joking and being very serious.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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...only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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And, have developed the potential and activity, to destroy the very ecosystems upon which is required for their survival.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

I believe it is all fluke. Fluke that in our evolving we chanced upon a diet that developed brain size. Fluke that our body's evolved opposing thumbs, etc...

That coupled with the facts that -

1) We were the first (as allready mentioned.)
2) We have HAD to develope at such a rate to survive.
and
3) If the history of this planet was 24 hours long, we are still not at 00.10AM. So we may still end up being a pretty low species on the list of all time highly developed lifeforms on this planet. Remember when running the 100m in under 10secs was a real big deal?

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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3) If the history of this planet was 24 hours long, we are still not at 00.10AM. So we may still end up being a pretty low species on the list of all time highly developed lifeforms on this planet. Remember when running the 100m in under 10secs was a real big deal?

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That depends on what you define 'highly evolved' as. If you define it as 'total mass exceeding <number> you'll end up with a different answer than when defining it as 'ability for widespread use of abstract symbols'.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Agreed.

My point works for either format.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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...only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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And, have developed the potential and activity, to destroy the very ecosystems upon which is required for their survival.

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So?

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

The way this question is phrased renders it meaningless. It really is no different than asking why I saw a license plate numbere xyz 123 today.

However if what you really mean is that we have a complex society and because we appear to be the only complex society, is their a special reason for that. From which you can draw many hypothesises including:

1. We are the most efficient complex society amongst others, (example neanderthals) and as the early winner we currently hold a monopoly

2. An outside force has made it so

3. We are not complex society in relation to some noncarbon based lifeform that will introduce itself tomorrow

4. so on down the science fiction imagination

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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Opposable thumbs = able to use tools.

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We've all heard this, but is their any real evidence that it is true? Specifically that opposable thumbs were crucial to our develepoment.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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Opposable thumbs = able to use tools.

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We've all heard this, but is their any real evidence that it is true? Specifically that opposable thumbs were crucial to our develepoment.

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Um, try taping your thumbs to your palms.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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developed into a complex society.... Why aren't there fish societies, using ATM cards, and working at Coral Reef Complexes in the ocean.... Out of all the species on earth, only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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Keep in mind, the only reason you even have humans is the fact that the dinosaurs had a really lousy space program (as noted by I fergit who).

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

1. We did it first

2. Macroevolution operates on timescales orders of magnitude larger than societal change. This is also why we have such trouble accepting evolution.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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developed into a complex society.... Why aren't there fish societies, using ATM cards, and working at Coral Reef Complexes in the ocean.... Out of all the species on earth, only humanoids have developed into something that has the potential to affect and control the rest of the world and it's inhabitants...

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- Other species do form societies (gorillas, etc) so your question isn't really about society, but about power.

- Other species have had tons of unconscious power (the first plant life caused mass die-offs of species who could not tolerate the oxygen they produced), so your question is really about conscious control, i.e. intelligence.

- Humans are the first highly intelligent life because it's hard to evolve and is kind of a niche market anyway (how would fish benefit from being ultraintelligent, for instance?)

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

An ultra-intelligent fish would be one depressed little creature.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Extelligence.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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An ultra-intelligent fish would be one depressed little creature.

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I think you're underselling intelligence. The right ultra-intelligent-fish society might be able to figure out all sorts of things. Why is an opposable thumb so useful? Because it allows us to manipulate nature (do work in other words) easily. But suppose some smart fish figures out that all those bubbles he and his smart fish-mates exhale do have the potential to form matter simply due to erosion, if properly channeled (stacks of schools of them flapping their fins this way and that toward some target creature, element or whatever). They could theoretically build anything that way...musical instruments, computing devices...perhaps even rocket ships...given enough time (one helluvalong time granted...at least until they built machines capable of even more efficient action, which should also be within their grasp).

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

I hope we visit a distant star and meet some ultra-intelligent salmon who asks what took us so long.

(I really do!)

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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Opposable thumbs = able to use tools.

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I certainly contemplated this to be a definitely explanation as to the answer to my original question.... But at what point in the history of man did we evolve into having opposable thumbs??? Or was it just an anomaly, that these opposable thumbs led to the domination of earth by humans.....

Secondly, I don't think comparing gorilla and bee societies comes close to that of human society... Let's be realistic... That's like comparing a NASCAR engine to the mechanics of a tricycle....

Now, I am no where an expert on this subject... I am only a 25 year old college graduate that has taken up poker for the time being... I am not some physics professor or such, but am curious about this subject at hand????

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

It's a combination of all the above.

We were lucky enough to be one of the species with oposable thumbs that also stumbled upon a diet in Africa that made our brains grow.

We were also lucky enough that the dinosaurs were wiped out.

We were also lucky enough to do it first.

We were unfortunately not lucky enough to evolve into a natural state of equilibriam with the Earth's enviorenment.

Oh well, 4 out of 5 aint bad.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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It's a combination of all the above.

We were lucky enough to be one of the species with oposable thumbs that also stumbled upon a diet in Africa that made our brains grow.

We were also lucky enough that the dinosaurs were wiped out.

We were also lucky enough to do it first.

We were unfortunately not lucky enough to evolve into a natural state of equilibriam with the Earth's enviorenment.

Oh well, 4 out of 5 aint bad.

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Such a ridiculous myth that there even IS a natural state of equilibrium in nature, much less that any animals "evolved" to fit nicely into it. Every animal species is bent on manipulating its environment to its own benefit. This "equilibrium" you talk about does not exist.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

I agree.

And that IS unlucky as I said.

Glad we have the same point of view. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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I agree.

And that IS unlucky as I said.

Glad we have the same point of view. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Its really not that unlucky. At least, not from my perspective. If it existed we'd all be bacteria.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Yes, my symantice were a bit off in my last post, but not the one before.

It is not unlucky that the way things are is, well, the way things are.

However, we were not lucky enough that they are different. I.E. we are not lucky enough to evolve into a state of equilibrium with the Earths natural enviorenment. I think that is pretty much word for word my original thought.

I never said we were unlucky about it.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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Yes, my symantice were a bit off in my last post, but not the one before.

It is not unlucky that the way things are is, well, the way things are.

However, we were not lucky enough that they are different. I.E. we are not lucky enough to evolve into a state of equilibrium with the Earths natural enviorenment. I think that is pretty much word for word my original thought.

I never said we were unlucky about it.

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I'm not lucky enough to have a [censored] machine either.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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I agree.

And that IS unlucky as I said.

Glad we have the same point of view. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Its really not that unlucky. At least, not from my perspective. If it existed we'd all be bacteria.

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Ya, the discord is the fun part. I'm glad I can masturbate or ride a roller coaster and really enjoy it. That's the other side of the coin. Though, if I was bacteria, I'd probably have a different perspective.

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Such a ridiculous myth that there even IS a natural state of equilibrium in nature, much less that any animals "evolved" to fit nicely into it. Every animal species is bent on manipulating its environment to its own benefit. This "equilibrium" you talk about does not exist.

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Oh these words ring so true. The day people stop using those inane 'balance' ideals the better. It is sad that they got such a strong foothold back in the early 70s/late 60s even in many academic branches. To this day they are behind so many stupid 'scientific myths'

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

There isn't a really good reason for a high level intelligence. It really isn't as useful for survival as you might think. We are sort of a fluke. I've read that a lot of biologists believe that if you went backwards 40 million years and ran the whole thing over and over again there is a very good chance we wouldn't even show up. Brains require a lot of energy to keep going and aren't as useful to most species as they are to us.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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There isn't a really good reason for a high level intelligence. It really isn't as useful for survival as you might think. We are sort of a fluke. I've read that a lot of biologists believe that if you went backwards 40 million years and ran the whole thing over and over again there is a very good chance we wouldn't even show up. Brains require a lot of energy to keep going and aren't as useful to most species as they are to us.

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I think this is just almost incomprehensibly wrong. Science, our latest, best way of understanding nature and our environment and a direct result of our intelligence, is realistically just a few hundred years old. We are practically a new species with its invention. We are the first to even recoginze that there are consequences to specific actions we take, and the first to be able to change those actions or mitigate the damage mid-stream. For a large, high-maintenance creature we are wildly successful. We will be very, very hard to kill, and should we live a few more centuries and enjoy technical progress even remotely similar to that enjoyed these last few, most of what some view as intractable problems today will vanish. If not sooner.

Talk about your poverty of imagination...

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

Well one possibility is that "controlling" the rest of the world is bad for the continued existence of a species. Or you and I could just be lucky to be part of the paradigm shift.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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There isn't a really good reason for a high level intelligence. It really isn't as useful for survival as you might think. We are sort of a fluke. I've read that a lot of biologists believe that if you went backwards 40 million years and ran the whole thing over and over again there is a very good chance we wouldn't even show up. Brains require a lot of energy to keep going and aren't as useful to most species as they are to us.

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I think this is just almost incomprehensibly wrong. Science, our latest, best way of understanding nature and our environment and a direct result of our intelligence, is realistically just a few hundred years old. We are practically a new species with its invention. We are the first to even recoginze that there are consequences to specific actions we take, and the first to be able to change those actions or mitigate the damage mid-stream. For a large, high-maintenance creature we are wildly successful. We will be very, very hard to kill, and should we live a few more centuries and enjoy technical progress even remotely similar to that enjoyed these last few, most of what some view as intractable problems today will vanish. If not sooner.

Talk about your poverty of imagination...

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Uh thats great and all but you are misunderstanding my point. Yes our intelligence at this point provides a huge advantage and yes at some point clearly evolving intelligence helped our species but in the general case intelligence is not the be all end all of evolution. Our ancestors were weaker and slower than their contemporaries who didn't have a high level of intelligence. Obviously in this case intelligence won out but there is no reason to think it would win out in the general case.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

There is no "be all and end all of evolution". What we call evolution is just the fringe, crackling embers of a big explosion that took place 14 billion years ago. Of course you right that it need not necessarily have developed, or at least in our own narrow understanding of it.

Re: Why have Only Humans.....
 

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There is no "be all and end all of evolution". What we call evolution is just the fringe, crackling embers of a big explosion that took place 14 billion years ago. Of course you right that it need not necessarily have developed, or at least in our own narrow understanding of it.

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I disagree with this. While your right that but-for the BigBang life never would have evolved on Earth, but the BigBang was not an evolutionary process.