JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 3.75 BB

Would you have played it any different? I mean honestly what could he have called for on the flop other then to check raise me later... no draw. The A on the turn may have been the worst card for me... So may people stay in to hit there ace...

Comments?

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

bet turn. the ace is as scary for him as it is for you.

as played I'd bet the river. When he checks to you you have him beat and get value from a T.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

Bet the river. If villain is somewhat tight this is good.

You honestly don't think he could have 65 or 54 or Q5 or a zillion other hands that include a five?

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

I think I should have bet the river. after his second check but I couldn't pull the trigger on this occasion, for some reason.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

as played i would bet the river.
turn is, i think, player dependent decision; if he is loose-passive bet/fold (all streets); if he is LAG (he'd probably bet, so check/call); your line could be for tight-passive - but i don't know, what would he call with on the flop - AQs? K? well, he's not TAG, that's sure.
he seems like a LP (open-limp from MP), so bet/fold turn&amp;river.
(i'm not sure for river fold to a c/r - whatever, he can't do it:))

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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Would you have played it any different? I mean honestly what could he have called for on the flop other then to check raise me later... no draw.

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Two cards bigger than a 5. Bet every street.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

Two K’s on the flop makes it more unlikely that anyone has a K then if just 1 K flopped. I think some of the people at Stars .25/.50 realize this, and play back at me on just these flops.

Anyway, the bottom end of your raising range includes AK or even AQ, both pretty frightening hands against a limper. Bet the turn, fold to a C/R.

River I let check thru (but I'm a wuss).

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

As you play more hands you will constantly be surprised with what people will all you down with. It's one of the hidden bonuses of playing on-line poker.

I think I'd bet this hand until villain raised. Remember they can't fold unless you bet. Well, they can but still.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

Opponent dependent. Generally I check the turn and bet the river, but it obviously depends on how aggressive your opponent is. Since we know that the opponent did not bet the river, we can say in retrospect that it was probably better to bet the turn (and check the river).

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

i bet the turn and the river, it costs me nothing extra as I have to fold to a c/r

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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i bet the turn and the river, it costs me nothing extra as I have to fold to a c/r

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Meh, bet/fold the turn, take the free showdown.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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i bet the turn and the river, it costs me nothing extra as I have to fold to a c/r

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Meh, bet/fold the turn, take the free showdown.

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To you guys who bets the turn.

What worse hand do you expect to get called with?

How many worse hands do you think he has where handing out free cards is a mistake?

How often do you think he will bluff the river if we check the turn?


I dont think checking is a mistake. There are plenty of hands he will fold to a bet but bluff with on the river.

The pot is smallish so your primary goal should be to get more bets into the pot. If he bluffs a lot when turn gets checked through you should consider a value check.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

bet/fold turn.

Given that we've checked behind turn, I do believe that we've confused our opponent holding 77 or so. He will surely call a river bet, esp if he holds like JT. Sometimes he will have a better hand, but there is not much here that would indicate that. Definitely missed some value.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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i bet the turn and the river, it costs me nothing extra as I have to fold to a c/r

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Meh, bet/fold the turn, take the free showdown.

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To you guys who bets the turn.

What worse hand do you expect to get called with?

How many worse hands do you think he has where handing out free cards is a mistake?

How often do you think he will bluff the river if we check the turn?


I dont think checking is a mistake. There are plenty of hands he will fold to a bet but bluff with on the river.

The pot is smallish so your primary goal should be to get more bets into the pot. If he bluffs a lot when turn gets checked through you should consider a value check.

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I agree, I don't think checking is a big mistake. However, many bad players are committed to a calldown when hero raises preflop, and autobets this flop, regardless of turn/river cards.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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How many worse hands do you think he has where handing out free cards is a mistake?

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Every Q has 6 outs against us. If he folds one I'd consider that a success even if the pot is only 4BB.

Qhxh, QJ have even more outs (even though those are unlikely)

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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How many worse hands do you think he has where handing out free cards is a mistake?

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Every Q has 6 outs against us. If he folds one I'd consider that a success even if the pot is only 4BB.

Qhxh, QJ have even more outs (even though those are unlikely)

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- Qx

In a 4 BB pot you would much rather have him bluff bet the river than have him fold a 6 outer.

That said he needs to bluff bet it fairly often for it to better to check.


- Q high fd.

If he calls that - and I think we can assume that he will - its of course nice to get some value. But again if he will bluff bet the river for you it doesnt really matter when the bet goes in. If you win the hand you win 1 bet and if he sucks out you loose 1 bet.


A basic thing to think about: If your hand isnt good enough to valuebet again on the river you should strongly consider to check the turn.

- A lot of the worse hands that you miss value from on the turn will bet the river. So you win 1 bet anyways

- You will not get c/r and save 2 bets when you were gonna call down a c/r.

- You will see the river with your x outs and not get raised of the hand when you were gonna fold to a c/r.

- When villain was gonna c/f the turn you will sometimes win 1 bet on the river when he bluffs.


If you think you have a valuebet again on the river all those things does not apply as you will loose value from not valuebetting the turn.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

:g:
Check turn call/ (b/f) any river. You are getting called or raised by A or K on the turn, crap hands will fold and you are not getting value from a Q (that is the only hand short of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s and maaaaybe JQs that is not drawing very slim in this tiny pot) but you might induce a river bluff or "value bet" from a low pp. Turn bet is bad IMO.

Unless of course MP3 does not have light responsive pupils, then you can valuebet 3 streets LDO.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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To you guys who bets the turn.

What worse hand do you expect to get called with?

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Medium pocket pairs and a flush draw.

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How many worse hands do you think he has where handing out free cards is a mistake?

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That backdoor flush draw is halfway there if he made a loose flop peel. But I don't think that's the point.

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How often do you think he will bluff the river if we check the turn?

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Probably not as often as he value bets the river with Ax/Kx.

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I dont think checking is a mistake. There are plenty of hands he will fold to a bet but bluff with on the river.

The pot is smallish so your primary goal should be to get more bets into the pot. If he bluffs a lot when turn gets checked through you should consider a value check.

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Your primary goal is to avoid making a mistake and to induce mistakes. This is the type of situation where it's rare you'll get in any more money when you have the best hand. I would rather bet-fold the turn with confidence that he's not bluffing than check and play the "What is his bluffing frequency?" game.

As you say, it's a small pot. But this cuts back against your plan because it means that villain must be bluffing about 20% of the time for your bluff-inducing check to have value.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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I would rather bet-fold the turn with confidence that he's not bluffing than check and play the "What is his bluffing frequency?" game.

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But the cost of him valuebetting river is 0 right since we would have payed that bet on the turn anyway.

What must be considered in order to chose between betting or checking on the turn is not Vills valuebet to bluff ratio on the river but rather Vils river bet (hands that we beat) to call with a worse hand on turn ratio. Right?

[edit] I'm assuming the pot is small so handing out freecards is no biggie [/edit]

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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I would rather bet-fold the turn with confidence that he's not bluffing than check and play the "What is his bluffing frequency?" game.

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But the cost of him valuebetting river is 0 right since we would have payed that bet on the turn anyway.

What must be considered in order to chose between betting or checking on the turn is not Vills valuebet to bluff ratio on the river but rather Vils river bet (hands that we beat) to call with a worse hand on turn ratio. Right?

[edit] I'm assuming the pot is small [/edit]

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Sort of... what you're missing are the situations like OP where villain doesn't bet the river. If he has a hand that he wants to show down but isn't willing to bet, then you miss out on the turn value bet. I just don't think that the bluffing frequency is high enough to overcome that loss of value (as small as it is), especially since the pot is small and I don't even know if a generic player bets his hand 20% of the time.

This is a spot like in blackjack where you hit on a 16 against a dealer 10 because you expect to lose less than if you just stand. You're not super-pleased with it, but it's better than the alternative.

When in doubt, value bet &gt; checking to induce a bluff. With such a small pot and no read on villain, I'm value betting and hoping to get called by flush draws, medium pocket pairs, and QJ/QT/JT.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

AW

If villain isnt bluffing busted fd's and lower pp's on the river you are absolutely right. Bet turn.

But I can not see how you can ever assume that should be the case. In my expecrince villain will bet crap on the river pretty often. Not just busted fd's but also air that would have folded on the turn.

Without a read I am checking this turn all day long

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

oink, don't you think that limping from MP is enough of a read to assume that he is somewhat passive, so he generally preferes to call than bluff? (not a rhetorical question)

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

oops, post count +1

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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AW

If villain isnt bluffing busted fd's and lower pp's on the river you are absolutely right. Bet turn.

But I can not see how you can ever assume that should be the case. In my expecrince villain will bet crap on the river pretty often. Not just busted fd's but also air that would have folded on the turn.

Without a read I am checking this turn all day long

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Go with your experience and whatever reads you have at that specific moment. We're at the level of pure speculation at this point.

My basic microlimit principle is

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When in doubt, value bet &gt; checking to induce a bluff.

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so I'm betting the turn.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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oink, don't you think that limping from MP is enough of a read to assume that he is somewhat passive, so he generally preferes to call than bluff? (not a rhetorical question)

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No

Bad players make bad plays. IMO its much easier to induce a bluff from a bad loose passive than a fairly good LAG.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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oink, don't you think that limping from MP is enough of a read to assume that he is somewhat passive, so he generally preferes to call than bluff? (not a rhetorical question)

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No

Bad players make bad plays. IMO its much easier to induce a bluff from a bad loose passive than a fairly good LAG.

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I'm going to disagree with this quite strongly.

Bad players make bad plays, but they make mistakes in line with their playing style. Callers call too much and bluffers bluff too much. If they played poorly in the opposite style, then they would be somewhat good because they would actually be mimicking a good bluffing/calldown frequency.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

Gotta bet the river (you might not get called but your hand is almost always good). Checking the river might be best against a good/tricky player that will (sometimes) check a boss hand twice but an unknown will call with a worse hand much more often then he will check/raise a king or call with Ax. The rest of the hand is fine.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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If they played poorly in the opposite style, then they would be somewhat good because they would actually be mimicking a good bluffing/calldown frequency.

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I think this is true for many people who are very lose pre flop. They tend to bluff a lot at orphan pots and scare cards and to partly make up for early street atrocities. Those who dont will go broke so fast you wont even notice them.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

There are two lines you could take here on the turn.

a) you could keep betting. The A is a scare card for him, too and see how he responds. But I probably would fold to a raise.

b) You could check the turn as you did, but then fire off a value bet on river. As others mentioned, there are some combinations like lower PP that will still call that bet, plus some non-paired overcards that will call thinking we are bluffing. Unfortunately at micros a c/r on the river is VERY strong, so you would have to fold to raise, but I still think the value of betting is larger than the times you lose that bet to a c/r.

BTW, your EV by value-betting is not very large as others mentioned, but it's those small little things that make the difference, IMO.
Also, if this were mid-limit, I still would have no idea what to do with a c/r as people are very capable of c/r bluffing a busted draw there.

Re: JJ would you have played it differently?
 

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Anyway, the bottom end of your raising range includes AK or even AQ, both pretty frightening hands against a limper.

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I want to comment on this, but I want to make sure I understand you correctly before I do.

In hero's place, what is your raising range here?