Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

I was down in Atlantic City this weekend for a poker trip with a friend of mine. My normal comfort zone for live games is between 5/10 and 10/20, inclusive. My favorite AC game is the pink chip at trop. I'm a standard SSHE disciple, learned to play in the micro-limit forums when Bison was king.

My friend plays 20/40 and higher. He played the Borgata game Thursday night and told me I "had to play it," it was "Candyland." Since I'm a bankroll nit, I told him that was out of my comfort zone and wouldn't play.

He offered two opportunities;

1) Crossbook 50%, equally split winnings and losses when we're both seated at 20/40.

OR

2) He'd stake me for half of my buy-in.

Just to get this out of the way, there's no way I'd play 20/40 and revert to some weak-tight strategy where I'm dead money to the other TAGs. A bet is a bet.

20/40 Borgata Pros...... What's the right play?

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

Take a shot.

NineinchAl could answer better than me.
I do not think I have ever seen that dude with less than 5 racks of red at the table.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

STAKING PEOPLE IS A BAD IDEA! if they are so good why would they need staking, id just play urself if u studied SSHE, if u can beat .25-.50 cents on stars u can beat a live 20-40 game easy.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
STAKING PEOPLE IS A BAD IDEA! if they are so good why would they need staking

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about this for about 6 hours, and I can't think of any possible reason.

[ QUOTE ]
id just play urself if u studied SSHE

[/ QUOTE ]

hee hee

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

God is it really that good? I'm there every week and on weeknights it's like "decent" at best. For a live game that is.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

I played it, taking the crossbook with my buddy. I held my own for about 5 hours in two separate sessions on Friday afternoon and Friday night, down $300, 7 bets. My buddy destroyed his tables and took 60 bets out of there.

My tables were both good. There were three (or so) pro's at each table who played differently than the fish did, but even they didn't impress me..... I felt I was playing as well as they were. The bad players were absolutely horrible. I'm always amazed when I move up how people play poker for "real" money and have no idea what they're doing.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

If you can't play comfortably with your money one level above your normal game, you probably shouldn't play it with someone else's money.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

If you do choice number one when seated at the same table, that honestly sounds like collusion to me. Even if you didn't deliberately cheat, you are not going to care whether he or you wins a pot, and will prefer he wins to another player and may play accordingly, even if not intentionally. Even choice two would be a little sketchy if seated together at the same table.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

I dont think you are ready for this game.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

1) this is not a B&M topic. Just because your going to play at the Borg doesnt mean its a B&M specific discussion, staking is a universal poker discussion regardless of limits/games/locations. In the future please keep non-B&M discussion in the appropriate forum, poker theory and beginners would both be good options.

2) In your history of 2+2 you have made only one post in the strategy forums. Spend your investment there rather than risking your friend's money. If I was in the staking business you would be a very poor risk, your "credit rating" would be the equivelent of someone who is on unemployment.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

http://www.wpclipart.com/tools/hammer/hammer_1.png

Way to lay down the hammer TT [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
Take a shot.

NineinchAl could answer better than me.
I do not think I have ever seen that dude with less than 5 racks of red at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I buy in for six racks, this way when I get scalped it looks like I'm winning.

But seriously folks, I recently dropped down to 10/20 due to my bankroll considerations. I sunk about 200 benjamins; which was my entire bankroll into my Boardwalk apartment with the 20/40 I won in that game.

I started off by getting staked 60/40, 60% for me and 40% for my friend Fat Slim. He would play 2/5 NL while I grinded 20/40. He was happy to do it too, since every time I romped through "Candy Land" it was the all you can eat buffet for a decade. In fact whenever we made this deal, we never lost even one time.

After a few months I pumped up my roll to about 6 or 7 grand, I had the confidence to run on my own. Fat Slim wasn't too happy since his gravy train ended. However, I will seek him out to get back in. Gotta be careful though in 20/40 though; sometimes these waters are shark infested, so its more like "Jaws" than "Candy Land." Gotta know your players.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[image]Way to lay down the hammer TT [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I know for a fact that you agree with me you nutcase. I drove past AC this weekend on my way to Cape May. First time ever I was down there without playing poker, so sad. Hope all is well!

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[image]Way to lay down the hammer TT [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I know for a fact that you agree with me you nutcase. I drove past AC this weekend on my way to Cape May. First time ever I was down there without playing poker, so sad. Hope all is well!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with you, chances are if you need a stake..well never mind.

I visited Cape May in June with my wife. We made a nice day of it. We went to the Zoo during the day, then to the Lobster House for an early dinner and to Sunset Beach to watch the sunset.

Things are well.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

6-7k in a 20/40 game is less than 175BB, its really not enough to safely play because your risk of ruin is too high. Assuming your standard deviation is 25BB/hour and you make a solid 1BB/hour (very realistic for a live game for a good player) you have a 57.12% chance of going broke. If your SD is 15BB ($600/hour) then you have a 21% chance of going broke. If you increased your BR to 10k you have a bit more than 10% chance of going broke with the same standard deviation. In order to reduce your risk of ruin to 1% you need a 20k bankroll.

For those of you who are interesting in bankroll management please read Mason's excellent book Gambling Theory and other topics.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
6-7k in a 20/40 game is less than 175BB, its really not enough to safely play because your risk of ruin is too high. Assuming your standard deviation is 25BB/hour and you make a solid 1BB/hour (very realistic for a live game for a good player) you have a 57.12% chance of going broke. If your SD is 15BB ($600/hour) then you have a 21% chance of going broke. If you increased your BR to 10k you have a bit more than 10% chance of going broke with the same standard deviation. In order to reduce your risk of ruin to 1% you need a 20k bankroll.

For those of you who are interesting in bankroll management please read Mason's excellent book Gambling Theory and other topics.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am aware 6 or 7 k is not enough to avoid the risk of ruin at $20/$40. I was prepared to step down to 10/20 if I went down to $3k or so. However, I hit a good streak to the upside. I am one of those who read Mason's book and understand its implications. That's why I am grinding at $10/20 at this point. I will never have to go broke at 10/20 even if I have to dig into my pocket, since I got that kinda cash. I also anticipate I will safely be able to step up into 20/40 sometime early 2008.

"Gambling Theory and other Topics" was the most important work that I read in order to understand the swings I have to be able to endure in the course of becoming a winning poker player.

Thank you Mason...

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you do choice number one when seated at the same table, that honestly sounds like collusion to me. Even if you didn't deliberately cheat, you are not going to care whether he or you wins a pot, and will prefer he wins to another player and may play accordingly, even if not intentionally. Even choice two would be a little sketchy if seated together at the same table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty disappointing that no one picked up on this.

The viability of the games depends on their integrity. We lose that, the recreational players will go away (I know I will) and without us tourists, all you pros will have to beat up on each other. My advice: earn some money and stake yourself, get staked legitimately, or get a second job.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you do choice number one when seated at the same table, that honestly sounds like collusion to me. Even if you didn't deliberately cheat, you are not going to care whether he or you wins a pot, and will prefer he wins to another player and may play accordingly, even if not intentionally. Even choice two would be a little sketchy if seated together at the same table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, which is why we sat at different tables. Borgata had three and four games running on Friday.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) this is not a B&M topic. Just because your going to play at the Borg doesnt mean its a B&M specific discussion, staking is a universal poker discussion regardless of limits/games/locations. In the future please keep non-B&M discussion in the appropriate forum, poker theory and beginners would both be good options.

2) In your history of 2+2 you have made only one post in the strategy forums. Spend your investment there rather than risking your friend's money. If I was in the staking business you would be a very poor risk, your "credit rating" would be the equivelent of someone who is on unemployment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I'm so embarrassed at how you laid the smackdown on me, which is obvious because I sent you a private message asking why you're a dick, I want to clear a few things up.

At no point did I ask if I was a good investment for my friend. My friend seemed to think I was, I mentioned this explicitly. I was asking for third-party opinions about taking a crossbook (or stake) in a game I've never played before and listed some of my qualifications. Thank you TT for your unsolicited off-topic opinion about whether I'm a good investment, I'll be sure to pass that on to the interested parties and then kill myself for sucking at life.

For those of you who think TT takes 2+2 too seriously, PM me for some hilarity. Thank you to those who understood what I was asking and answered despite my ignorance.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

Since you are either a dog in the game or possibly breakeven I dont think it matters either way.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you do choice number one when seated at the same table, that honestly sounds like collusion to me. Even if you didn't deliberately cheat, you are not going to care whether he or you wins a pot, and will prefer he wins to another player and may play accordingly, even if not intentionally. Even choice two would be a little sketchy if seated together at the same table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty disappointing that no one picked up on this.

The viability of the games depends on their integrity. We lose that, the recreational players will go away (I know I will) and without us tourists, all you pros will have to beat up on each other. My advice: earn some money and stake yourself, get staked legitimately, or get a second job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I have never encountered collusion in any of the games at the Borgata. However, I detected this overt behavior in some games at the Taj. There is a loansharking ring that operates directly at the tables amongst the players. It makes for a seedy atmosphere and doubts about the integrity amongst the players.

I also caught spectators behind the glass wall in the corridor flashing signals to players sitting across the table to those players with their backs to the glass; they were peeking at hole cards of players with their backs to the glass.

I reported this to the floor. The took action that day, however, I still see people standing along the glass wall, so beware.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

"""Good point. I have never encountered collusion in any of the games at the Borgata. However, I detected this overt behavior in some games at the Taj. There is a loansharking ring that operates directly at the tables amongst the players. It makes for a seedy atmosphere and doubts about the integrity amongst the players. """



Uh, isn't this like ian from the borgata, at 80-160 bankrolling his group of broke degenerates.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
"""Good point. I have never encountered collusion in any of the games at the Borgata. However, I detected this overt behavior in some games at the Taj. There is a loansharking ring that operates directly at the tables amongst the players. It makes for a seedy atmosphere and doubts about the integrity amongst the players. """



Uh, isn't this like ian from the borgata, at 80-160 bankrolling his group of broke degenerates.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know Ian and the broke degenerates, although that's what I should have named my band. I never played at that level.

However, I never witnessed this at any of the 10/20 and 20/40 games I played in at the Borg. I notice a much more pleasant crowd there, as well as much better looking waitresses, and much, much better drinks, from the water up through the booze.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you do choice number one when seated at the same table, that honestly sounds like collusion to me. Even if you didn't deliberately cheat, you are not going to care whether he or you wins a pot, and will prefer he wins to another player and may play accordingly, even if not intentionally. Even choice two would be a little sketchy if seated together at the same table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty disappointing that no one picked up on this.

The viability of the games depends on their integrity. We lose that, the recreational players will go away (I know I will) and without us tourists, all you pros will have to beat up on each other. My advice: earn some money and stake yourself, get staked legitimately, or get a second job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I have never encountered collusion in any of the games at the Borgata. However, I detected this overt behavior in some games at the Taj. There is a loansharking ring that operates directly at the tables amongst the players. It makes for a seedy atmosphere and doubts about the integrity amongst the players.

I also caught spectators behind the glass wall in the corridor flashing signals to players sitting across the table to those players with their backs to the glass; they were peeking at hole cards of players with their backs to the glass.

I reported this to the floor. The took action that day, however, I still see people standing along the glass wall, so beware.

[/ QUOTE ]

Casino Security has broken up cheating rings in certain poker rooms in Atlantic City.

Once the Taj made it's way into the movie Rounders, everybody wants to play there. The same people believe that Las Vegas is the mecca of the poker universe. Even though everyone should consider California the true mecca.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

Wait until you have a suitable bankroll to play the game or $1000 that you aren't too attached to and take a shot. My advice is not to enter into a staking agreement and play your own money at limits that you're financially and psychologically comfortable with.

Jeff

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[/ QUOTE ]Casino Security has broken up cheating rings in certain poker rooms in Atlantic City.

Once the Taj made it's way into the movie Rounders, everybody wants to play there. The same people believe that Las Vegas is the mecca of the poker universe. Even though everyone should consider California the true mecca.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike, specifically how were they cheating? Any references?

Thanks,

nineinch

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]Casino Security has broken up cheating rings in certain poker rooms in Atlantic City.

Once the Taj made it's way into the movie Rounders, everybody wants to play there. The same people believe that Las Vegas is the mecca of the poker universe. Even though everyone should consider California the true mecca.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike, specifically how were they cheating? Any references?

Thanks,

nineinch

[/ QUOTE ]

PM sent. I do not want to threadjack.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even though everyone should consider California the true mecca.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the Commerce is the Kaaba?

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even though everyone should consider California the true mecca.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the Commerce is the Kaaba?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to look it up in Google, hold on.



Kabba-wiki

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

I am the friend who staked the OP. First of all, let me say that I am amazed that so many (allegedly) accomplished poker players cannot comprehend the value of being staked. The theory of "If you don't have the bankroll to play the 20/40 game, then you shouldn't be playing it" is ludicrous. OP is an excellent player that simply chooses not to keep a roll large enough to play 20/40. Does that in and of itself make him unable to have a considerable edge at the game? Absolutely not. In fact, if any of you would like to set up a private table online somewhere, I would feel quite good about staking him against any of you. The best players in the world have staking arrangements for various reasons, and to suggest it is a bad idea for OP to receive a stake in order to play a game that he normally wouldn't play is just dumb.

Also, allow me to second the notion that *TT* is a dick. You're a moderator for God's sake. Show some class with your responses. I'm aware that the best lay that you ever had either involved a sheep, blowup doll or a watermelon, and clearly your life experience hasn't allowed you to collect a great deal of self esteem, but try your best to act like something other than a complete tard.

That is all.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

You didn't stake me.... it was a crossbook.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

You're splitting hairs. Besides...clearly the most important point of my post involved the watermelon.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're splitting hairs. Besides...clearly the most important point of my post involved the watermelon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure the watermelon was left completely unsatisfied...

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you do choice number one when seated at the same table, that honestly sounds like collusion to me. Even if you didn't deliberately cheat, you are not going to care whether he or you wins a pot, and will prefer he wins to another player and may play accordingly, even if not intentionally. Even choice two would be a little sketchy if seated together at the same table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty disappointing that no one picked up on this.

The viability of the games depends on their integrity. We lose that, the recreational players will go away (I know I will) and without us tourists, all you pros will have to beat up on each other. My advice: earn some money and stake yourself, get staked legitimately, or get a second job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm all for integrity but I'd like to ask anyone who feels that OP's option one is possible collusion, whether you would ban a husband and wife who sat down at the same table. All of that money comes out of the same bank account (typically).

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, isn't this like ian from the borgata, at 80-160 bankrolling his group of broke degenerates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ian has bankrolled up to a dirty dozen at a time and all the way from 20/40 to 40/80 to 80/160. Somehow the Borgata thinks that players betting wild with some impunity at the same table is not collusion as it went on for years. I'm sure they were just having fun with the millions that Ian used to have. Or so I hear. I'm only gossipping about this because I find it repulsive and it also seems counter productive to those involved.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm all for integrity but I'd like to ask anyone who feels that OP's option one is possible collusion, whether you would ban a husband and wife who sat down at the same table. All of that money comes out of the same bank account (typically).

[/ QUOTE ]

People often get concerned about playing against husband and wife. Usually it isn't a problem, but i'm sure it sometimes is one. You don't tend to get married for the purpose of lowering your joint poker volatility and picking off hapless opponents. The staking arrangement described in this thread is much more likely to create a problem since the financial arrangement between the two participants was entered into solely for purposes of playing poker.

So, yes, playing against a married couple can be problematic, though usually isn't. The arrangement described in this thread isn't OK just because sometimes husband and wife play hard against each other.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm all for integrity but I'd like to ask anyone who feels that OP's option one is possible collusion, whether you would ban a husband and wife who sat down at the same table. All of that money comes out of the same bank account (typically).

[/ QUOTE ]

People often get concerned about playing against husband and wife. Usually it isn't a problem, but i'm sure it sometimes is one. You don't tend to get married for the purpose of lowering your joint poker volatility and picking off hapless opponents. The staking arrangement described in this thread is much more likely to create a problem since the financial arrangement between the two participants was entered into solely for purposes of playing poker.

So, yes, playing against a married couple can be problematic, though usually isn't. The arrangement described in this thread isn't OK just because sometimes husband and wife play hard against each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to play against a husband and wife team in the middle of a heated, vicious, contested divorce. Even the appearance of collusion is nil.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

Actually I also don't like playing against a married couple at the table. I think it is fine at "friendly" games, say 4/8 and below, but nothing higher than that.

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I also don't like playing against a married couple at the table. I think it is fine at "friendly" games, say 4/8 and below, but nothing higher than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is one married couple that I play with at the Borgata in the 10/20. They always play together with the wife to the left of the husband (a guy with a fulltilt cap). I have no problem with this since I have never seen them collude in any way. In fact they both wear headphones so they don't have to talk to each other. Life is beautiful...

Re: Borgata $20/$40, Two Staking Opportunities
 

Shhh. Don't let September in Cape May out of the bag. It's one of the best kept secrets there is.