KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Hand 449849031312, Started at 2007-09-14 20:51:41
Table Beachjohans HE: $20-$20 No Limit HE (Real)

Seat 3: Villian ($4426,35 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 6: Scor_pion70 ($6205,95 in chips)
Seat 7: 0411 ($2260,50 in chips)
Seat 8: Hero ($2000 in chips)

*** Blind Bet Round *** :

Dealt to Hero: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Scor_pion70 : Post Blind ($10)
0411 : Post Blind ($20)

*** Pre-Flop *** :
Hero : Bet ($70)
Villian : Raise ($225)
Scor_pion70 : Fold
0411 : Fold
Hero : Call ($155)

*** Flop *** : 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero : Check
Villian : Bet ($355)
Hero : Call ($355)

*** Turn *** : [ 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero : Check
Villian : Bet ($755)
Hero : Raise ($1420) and is All-In

Villian is pretty agro guy. "hermaria" on PokerRoom if you know the guy. Running like 20/33/2.5 over decent sample. We have tangled couple of times in this session, and I have seen him double barrel etc. He pretty much always likes to bet big. I only called this preflop cuz we 4-handed, and he´s probably 3-betting light. Then the flop was so dry I ch/called, cuz villian could easily fire the second bullet. And it´s WA/WB. A is of course a great card for him to represent, so I sticked to my plan and get it in. I could hace just ch-called turn and river, but mine AI raise was not even a miniraise, and he could make a hero call with QQ. How is my turn play?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Sorry I mean the Villian is 33/20/2.5. I´m so [censored] tired. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

I think this is bad you beat a pair of 7s 8s 10s js, who plays them this way? The only hand that call has you beat. Well i mean since u probably were not scared of the 9s, 88 combos the ace is the worst possible card in the deck to hit on turn the check call on flop is fine, but why would u be so aggressive on the turn after u check called the flop when the worst possible card hits. Why not check/fold for a better ev+ spot after the way you played this hand.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Are you suggesting that I fold the turn, or call turn, and call river, or call turn, and fold to river bet?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Turn is really nasty and yeah, you might occasionally get called by the 2nd best hand still, but I'd just go into check-call mode at that point... on the river he might even check behind some mediocre Aces that he's not folding to your raise AI so you save some when behind. I think you should've modified your plan once the mother of all scare cards hit.

Kirk

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

even check calling the turn doesnt put us in a favorable spot

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is bad you beat a pair of 7s 8s 10s js, who plays them this way? The only hand that call has you beat. Well i mean since u probably were not scared of the 9s, 88 combos the ace is the worst possible card in the deck to hit on turn the check call on flop is fine, but why would u be so aggressive on the turn after u check called the flop when the worst possible card hits. Why not check/fold for a better ev+ spot after the way you played this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I admit that the c-r AI, was bad, cuz it woun´t fold better hands, and only seldomly gets called by worse, but isn´t folding this pretty weak? I don´t mind it W/O history against nitty guy, but we have a aggressive history together. I´m positive he fires here pretty much everything else exept TT, JJ, and perhaps QQ. Wouldn´t we double barrel this turn?
I´m just thinking does he have a air enough often, to us call profitable.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

So many hands beat yours, just dont put chips in the pot when your behind and hear so many combos beat yours.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
So many hands beat yours, just dont put chips in the pot when your behind and hear so many combos beat yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, seriously, enough already. Versus a good, aggro villain that 3-bets frequently in a short-handed game folding KK every time a scare card hits will get you eviscerated. We're not behind that many hands and any good LAG will bet that turn once OP checks. With 100BB stacks in a 3-bet pot folding at any point is pretty much not an option... the turn made it bad to check-raise, but no one is talking about folding here.

Kirk

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So many hands beat yours, just dont put chips in the pot when your behind and hear so many combos beat yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, seriously, enough already. Versus a good, aggro villain that 3-bets frequently in a short-handed game folding KK every time a scare card hits will get you eviscerated. We're not behind that many hands and any good LAG will bet that turn once OP checks. With 100BB stacks in a 3-bet pot folding at any point is pretty much not an option... the turn made it bad to check-raise, but no one is talking about folding here.

Kirk

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah i mean he only about 88 hands of 9s unlikely and about 121 hands of aces, i mean when we check raise all in he will call with what JJ QQ 1010? No because he will put us on AK AQ, maybe even AJ..this is exactly how the guy posting here should be thinking and if hes thinking otherwise he is going about these spots the wrong way. Were not even putting villian on the 9, this other guy will flat call flop with an ace a lot of times just to see if he catches on turn, he shouldnt be overplaying jj 1010 99 on this board.

This other guy obviously isn't fearing quads 9's or a9 from this guy here, this is how most think here so I will give each opponent that when the ace hits and he fires after the flat call on flop why bother calling?

There is no point.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

wtf. if you've never played above 100nl dont respond to these threads. no offense freeucm but like every post i've seen you make is just wrong. peoples 3betting range in position 4 handed isnt qq+. i dont get why we c/r instead of c/c.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf. if you've never played above 100nl dont respond to these threads. no offense freeucm but like every post i've seen you make is just wrong. peoples 3betting range in position 4 handed isnt qq+. i dont get why we c/r instead of c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time its QQ+, ok they thrown in AK AQs 88-JJ so how does this change the fact that the ony hand that calls us is gonna have us beat?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

freeucm is my new favorite gimmick account

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

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Most of the time its QQ+, ok they thrown in AK AQs 88-JJ

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omfg rofl

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Well he is very active in midstakes too =)

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

how are you not check raising this flop?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
how are you not check raising this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you check raise this flop, what are you doing on turn a block bet? check fold river?

or check call turn, block bet or c/c river?

Just wondering what your line would be. I personally like a bet on turn if i plan on checking raising when the ace hits, is this too bold?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

mods need to start banning people like freeucm, and liberally, then maybe some good players will come back here

this hand looks ok to me if you don't c/r the flop

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

where do these people come from

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

not check raising the flop is brutal. I like minraising this with wide range vs this type of opponent.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
mods need to start banning people like freeucm, and liberally, then maybe some good players will come back here

this hand looks ok to me if you don't c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
mods need to start banning people like freeucm, and liberally, then maybe some good players will come back here

this hand looks ok to me if you don't c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

YES

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

I didn´t check-raised the flop cuz, I really thought that the villian would fire the second bullet, or he could hit some J or Q, or at least pretend that he did hit it, and bet out. Due to the history between us I think Villian sees my hand like a mid pocket pair, TT or something, and is willing to bet me out from that.
I admit that the turn cr AI was bad, but the time I just thought why not get it in, cuz it´s not even a miniraise. You guys who are saying that ch-call the turn, I suppose you also call river AI, getting like 1:6, right?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

i think you have to stack off here, as you said his reraising range is wide, the ace is a good card for him to fire again and he would probably check behind a lot of those aces hoping he get some more on the river from your mid pair. that said i think calling the turn and checking the river is the correct play, i doubt he bluffs that often with little FE but he might check behind weak aces.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

"so I sticked to my plan and get it in"

I think you gave ur own answer right there. Just don't look at this hand, but all ur KK post/rag flop hands. KK is pretty much a push against one player. If you shove before the flop, PF, or on the streets is up to you. I think ur play was a little trappy, because you would know more if you bump him again b4 the flop. If he calls that, easier to push him post/flop instead of check/call, and maybe u never get to the A.

After c/c the flop for value, tuff luck you see an A. But over the KK hands you play, how often does that A show turn/river? Plus, although he has odds, no reason to call now unless he has a winner, so a weak Ace has a tuffer call. Certainly no point in you CALLING the turn, so it's shove or fold.

If you fold, it isn't that weak because he doesn't know what you folded, and he puts you on a missed draw. Here is where your read comes in, and you would only fold if you could put him on the A. If you had a bigger stack, it's an easier fold, because you have to risk much more equity to AI.

In the end, you have a plan to get value from your KK, kind of like getting value from a flush-chaser. When the flush comes, you fold, trashing the implied odds for ur opponent. When the A comes, you would do the same thing if you can put him on the A, but ur aggro villain could have anything.

Also, as you say, you left him great odds by being shorty, so many hands could still call you that don't have you beat.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

you destroyed this hand by c/c the flop... You deserve to get an ace on the turn.

Seriously though, how can we give you advice for check/call flop poker?

As played, i just muck..

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
you destroyed this hand by c/c the flop... You deserve to get an ace on the turn.

Seriously though, how can we give you advice for check/call flop poker?

As played, i just muck..

[/ QUOTE ]

yea man nvr mix it up !

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

i dont play hsnl, but is 4-betting pf a no no because it turns our hand face up?

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Why do people who can't beat $.50/1 feel compelled to post in HSNL? Someone needs to make me a mod...

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

Preflop: The call is fine, but I personally 4 bet light sometimes so I would also 4 bet this. If you never 4 bet light I'd call here everytime.

Flop: After just calling preflop I'd c/r here a large portion of the time to counterbalance when i bluff c/r the flop with missed overs.

Turn: Nasty card. Your hand looks like 66-QQ and the villian will mostly like bet all his aces, 9s and all hands that don't beat 66-QQ. At this point you have to make an estmation of how big his 3 betting range is. As described I'd either shove it or call. I don't see much of a difference in the EV. If I c/c the turn then I probaly c/c the river if i think the villian is capable of bluffing in that spot. If not c/f).

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

so i cant post in hsnl because i dont play highstakes? it was a simple question, if i ever saw you in rl i'd prolly put you to sleep.

Re: KK in 3-bet pot, A hits the turn. NL2k
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you destroyed this hand by c/c the flop... You deserve to get an ace on the turn.

Seriously though, how can we give you advice for check/call flop poker?

As played, i just muck..

[/ QUOTE ]

yea man nvr mix it up !

[/ QUOTE ]

You mix it up by CRing with a bigger range than just overpairs.

I have to agree that some of the advice lately is pretty stinky. If you dont play high stakes the OP probably doesnt want your advice. I know people are trying to learn and giving their opinion helps that, but makes threads a cluttered mess.