I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even right?
 

okay, so here's the HH from my other friend, not a complete one but I guess it's very early stage. big blind is 20

dealt to hero 8c4c
utg called 40
utg+1 folded
mp1 called 40
mp2 folded
co called 40
button folded
hero called 20
bb checked

flop

7c6c2h
everyone checked to co, CO went all in for 750
everyone folded.

okay, as played, flop is def. a fold, that's not a problem
the problem is the preflop, as me and most my friends were all agreed it's a fold preflop. Our friend, let's call him Tim, insists that you def. have to complete your sb there. Why? according to him, he said 1. you're calling 20 to win 180, even if you have 27, you still need to call. 2. 84 is unlikely to be dominated, QJ is much worse than 48 here (WTF!?)plus you have 3.5% chance for hitting two pair + trips, 6% for flush plus str8. 3. M is so big, you call pretty much with everything here.

So I listed tons examples his 48 won't be in good shape even if he flops two pair or trips or even str8. Then he kept telling me that bottom two is better than top two BECAUSE top two get stacked by bottom set but bottom two is less likely to be counterfeited and get stacked by top set because if someone has big pair, they should've raised preflop.

I kept telling him bottom two is no way better than top two but he just doesn't wanna believe me.

My question is..do you guys complete preflop? or fold it all day? I personally muck it all day no matter how big/short my stack is, because I really can't think of any flops that's really really good for 48c and would make 48c tons chips.
I told him calling preflop here w/ 48c is a - chip and -$EV move. He just doesn't believe me.

What do you guys say?

I think he's an ididot?

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

folding and calling are both not too bad, but 84s well, it lacks a bit in playability and i would prolly just fold.
but example:
Flop K84 or A84 - depending on the buyin, ppl will go broke with any ace, any king, any draw and you can just take their chips.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

I listed exactly K84 and A84, in both cases, 48 is still not good because in K84, turn comes another K, Q, A, J, T, 9 are all danger cards for 84. in A84 example, anyone who hold and Ace can easily turn into higher two pair against 48. So 48 in A48 case is really bad because any turn card is a danger card for 48.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

fold pf, but quit being arguing donkeys and concern yourself with more important things.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I listed exactly K84 and A84, in both cases, 48 is still not good because in K84, turn comes another K, Q, A, J, T, 9 are all danger cards for 84. in A84 example, anyone who hold and Ace can easily turn into higher two pair against 48. So 48 in A48 case is really bad because any turn card is a danger card for 48.

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that's why you get it in on the flop as a solid fav.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

First of all, I think there is a point for calling but I would just fold here and avoid any trouble. 84s/o is just too week.

Top two or bottom two....there is always the risk of beeing up against a set in a multiway pot so I don't see the point here! I sometimes see people limping behind 2 limpers with AA - JJ in the 11+1 buy-ins trying to "set up a trap" so you can never be sure about this (at least in the lower buy-ins).

[ QUOTE ]
I listed exactly K84 and A84, in both cases, 48 is still not good because in K84, turn comes another K, Q, A, J, T, 9 are all danger cards for 84. in A84 example, anyone who hold and Ace can easily turn into higher two pair against 48. So 48 in A48 case is really bad because any turn card is a danger card for 48.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any A has around 5 outs on the flop and 8 on the turn which makes you a solid favorite in this spot. Sy why should this be bad??? On the turn you have even outs for a boat so I really can't see why we should worry about an A who could turn into a better two pair??

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I listed exactly K84 and A84, in both cases, 48 is still not good because in K84, turn comes another K, Q, A, J, T, 9 are all danger cards for 84. in A84 example, anyone who hold and Ace can easily turn into higher two pair against 48. So 48 in A48 case is really bad because any turn card is a danger card for 48.

[/ QUOTE ]
that's why you get it in on the flop as a solid fav.

[/ QUOTE ]

the examples listed here are under circumstance given his opponents are just calling with their top pair. He's oop, if he doesn't bet out there on the flop, very hard for him to get all in there. Well, I guess I'm still mucking it all day.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf, but quit being arguing donkeys and concern yourself with more important things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

The lower the buy in the more likely I am to complete. They will stack off lighter giving you implied odds. If I flop bottom two in a sng, my stack is getting in. If I'm beat, it's a cooler.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

easy fold. you are playing out of position in an unraised pot. you are going to have a pretty tough time extracting many chips post flop.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

I'm generally calling with suited cards, connectors, or Ax.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

Such an easy complete here getting 8:1. You're getting paid off when you hit, the cost is negligible when you miss, and you're rarely making costly 2nd best hands.

Your friend's logic is wrong in several places, but the complete is certainly not bad and I would argue that it is good.

Of course he should have bet the flop and then called COs shove.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold. you are playing out of position in an unraised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being OOP isn't so much of a concern here because the hands 84s can take to showdown are going to be monster hands (2 pair+). Being OOP is much worse with a hand like A9o.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
The lower the buy in the more likely I am to complete. They will stack off lighter giving you implied odds. If I flop bottom two in a sng, my stack is getting in. If I'm beat, it's a cooler.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf, but quit being arguing donkeys and concern yourself with more important things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

Easy call with that many limpers. Unless you think your postflop skills are a liability. (Assuming the either the 40 you have for everyone calling, or the 20 for the BB is wrong).

(suzzer - tempbanned)

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

I'd say you'll probably get second-bested too often to make this work, but here specifically, it's certainly not horrible. The problem is that most people who complete this will continue to complete or see flops in spots that are closer to horrible.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

if im on cruise control i usually tjust fold this, but i dont think calling is bad

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

Fold PF - Harrington talks about this type scenario in Vol 1, unnecessarily bleeding chips away limping into pots.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
easy fold. you are playing out of position in an unraised pot.

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Being OOP isn't so much of a concern here because the hands 84s can take to showdown are going to be monster hands (2 pair+). Being OOP is much worse with a hand like A9o.

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Being OOP matters because its harder to extract value. The decision to play suited 3-gappers is based on your belief that the implied odds are there but when its harder to get someone to play to the felt then your implied odds drop considerably.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

Not worth arguing for days over. The expectation of folding vs calling has to be really close for most people.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

so were we okay with the flop play? I mean, if you dont flop two pair or set, youre flopping a draw. Assuming this is a lower buyin, should we bet the draw on the flop? I think this should be taken into consideration when making this call preflop.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even right?
 

My advice would be player specific. Somebody who is beating SNG's can play this profitably. If I'm talking to somebody who I know doesn't beat SNG's, I'd tell him to fold and stay out of trouble spots.

I call and look for a chance to stack somebody. IF I flop 2 or better and get beat, next game please. I play mostly 22's

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

For 10 chips with that many callers, I'm limping with just about any two cards and hoping to flop 2 pair or better. If I hit top pair, I'll check/fold. If I have a draw, I'll check and only stay in if I'm getting great odds to call a flop bet.

Later in the game, when the blinds are say, 50/100 or so, I'll usually fold this pf.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

in every "my friend" post the friend is always right and op should not waste time arguing.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

Very easy call pre-flop.

Hopefully one flop a flush, trips, quads, full house, top-two pair, straight, or a flushdraw and straight draw - if one not do that its mostly wise to just fold it to a CB.

Re: I\'ve been arguing this w/ my friend for many days, Is he even righ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being OOP matters because its harder to extract value. The decision to play suited 3-gappers is based on your belief that the implied odds are there but when its harder to get someone to play to the felt then your implied odds drop considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]

3/4 pot, 3/4 pot, 3/4 pot will get you all in. Or if you think you'll get more than 1 caller, 1/2 pot, 1/2 pot, 1/2 pot gets you all in. To donkey opponents none of those bets are going to look extraordinarily large.

By leading you get to control the minimum bet amount. Say you were in LP and the BB leads out for T20 into the T200 pot (very common at lower limits) - now you have to make a raise 8x the lead out bet which is much more intimidating than simply leading out for T160. A lead out bet doesn't give away that your hand is very strong while a huge raise like that usually does.

Edit - I'm not saying position isn't important. I'm just saying with a hand like this where you must flop an absolute monster to continue it doesn't matter as much. A hand like KQs from this position is much trickier to play because if you make any top pair that's enough hand to take to a showdown - now being OOP really sucks.