Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

..is that the human species is worth significantly more than other species. In fact, it can even be argued that humans are worth LESS than other animals, DUCY? But let's talk about the first thing first. Here are some arguments that I've heard/seen here that people use to delude themselves into believing that we are soooo great and important compared to others, when truth is we are just another animal species that has existed for a very short time. I'll comment on why they're ridiculous. Note that this only matters if human rights are inherit.

God created man and woman and gave them the right to use animals as they wish.

This is imo the best argument I've heard (and well, I personally think religions are close to ridiculous, and I'm not at all religious). Fact is that this isn't exactly even correct (according to the bible), the pope has even stated that current, unnaturally large-scaled and cruel abuse is not ok, and animals should be treated better although people have the right to use them.

Me macho man, me stronger&personally climbed to top of food chain and eat wtf ever I want.

You also rape women/innocent kids if you think you'd enjoy that?

We are so intelligent and animals are dumber than miss South Carolina

Why is this more significant than, say, being able to run faster or fly? Also this would mean young children and mentally retarded people would be available to be used as food.

We can feel pain and suffer but animals can't.

They can. Maybe less, but they definitely can suffer (even fish, according to new studies, although fish don't express emotions well).

We can create and enjoy art

Yeah, so..? Many animals can also enjoy things we can't.

We have consciousness and animals don't

And what exactly is consciousness, why is it so important and where's any evidence that points to the direction that animals don't have it? Many animals are self-aware.

We can love others etc.

And well, no animal cares about it's children? Some are monogamous too. Also, most human relationships definitely seem like just trading things, so that both sides benefit. While that's fine, I don't see it making us any more worthy.

We have made a deal with animals that we help them exist in big numbers and then can eat them in exchange

Such a deal definitely has not been made.

Life in pain is better than not living at all

If a being never exists, it simply never exists and so can't have any kind of rights or "will to live". And when a being exists it has rights. Just like a person is free to never have kids, but if a child is born, it has rights.

Abusing animals is natural, since we have always done it, and so must be right

Just because we have done something in the past doesn't mean it's right. Or is murdering and raping fine too? Also, before 20th century we didn't abuse animals on nearly similar scale, eating meat used to be much rarer than it now is.

But why would anyone try to claim that humans would be worth less than others? Because we are capable of doing absolutely sick things (even when not counting animal abuse). From nazis etc. to more common things like raping, scamming, murdering, bullying, adultery, incest etc. that can cause huge suffering, while we can fully realize what we are doing and the pain it causes. Animals do kill, but they are simply not capable of nearly similar, systematic things as us. In the other end of the spectrum, AFAIK there's no evidence that a happy person would be somehow happier than a happy animal, and the opposite could be true as well.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

I root for my team. If we can save a human's life by testing drugs on animals then start testing. I value human life higher than non-human life because I am human. I eat other animals because they are delicious and because for some reason I have pointed teeth in addition to flat teeth. I like having dogs as pets because they like chewing up my shoes and because I like the company.

None of that means I condone the torture of animals or mistreating them any more than is neccesary.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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..is that the human species is worth significantly more than other species.

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Me macho man, me stronger&personally climbed to top of food chain and eat wtf ever I want.

You also rape women/innocent kids if you think you'd enjoy that?



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The relative worth of the species doesn't exist outside of the human culture, it is us who set the priorities. And I think that your second argument is the most valid for PRACTICE, we are on the top of the food chain and eat whatever we like. As for your rebuttal about rapping innocent, well, sure we would do it if we enjoied it, normally we just don't.

If you want to make a case for a kinder treatment of the animals I think that you have presented the wrong arguments. Check the 'Grand Apes project' for a well argumented case, that aims to extend some human rights to the grand apes.

Anyway one have to draw the line somewhere, will you include the insects in the number of species as important as humans, or bacteria?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Anyway one have to draw the line somewhere, will you include the insects in the number of species as important as humans, or bacteria?

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I don't think a line would need to be drawn, it's gradual change.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

well played OP

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Wow that was dumb. We are more important because we are sentient.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Wow that was dumb. We are more important because we are sentient.

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Sorry. But the above is dumb. People who keep proposing that sentience is binary and we have it and nothing else does are just ignorant.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Define "worth". Therein lies your problem.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Thank you for doing absolutely nothing to change my mind about vegetarianism, or vegetarians.

Damn, that grilled cow flesh was AWESOME last night....

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Lucksack, Am i wrong in saying that every animal on the planet "thinks" its the most important species?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Lucksack, Am i wrong in saying that every animal on the planet "thinks" its the most important species?

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I think you are probably close to being right.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Define "worth". Therein lies your problem.

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The value of something measured by its qualities. Where's the problem?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Thank you for doing absolutely nothing to change my mind about vegetarianism, or vegetarians.


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I'm not surprised at all (because of the earlier thread). Do you think abusing people is wrong (at least you said you think cannibalism is wrong)? Would you agree that your belief in humans as a higher being is religious, because there's no rational basis for it? Or is your opinion mostly based on laws and social norms?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Neither animals nor humans have intrinsic value. If humans had intrinsic value, then we would try to have most babies possible, but birth rates are decreasing so we clearly don't value that.

Also, we will do with animals whatever we want because we hold a position of power. Killing humans is considered wrong by simple game theory, if killing humans was considered standard, then the odds that I would be killed would grow. Since I am rational, egotistical and with aim of self-preservation, I will make an effort to make killing humans be outlawed. Same thought process occurs with everyone else in the population.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

"right" and "wrong" are subjective social constructs.
Saying cannibalism is wrong is the same as saying gravity is wrong.
All our behaviour is pre-determined by the formation of our brains plus external stimuli. Same with a rock that falls from the top of a mountain. If it hits someone on the head would you say it was evil?
If you dont like the current status quo, then you dont like humans. Because we as a species are egotistical, rational, and self preserving. If we are stuck in an island without food, cannibalism is natural. It's waiting to die that's inhuman.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

lucksack,

You're reading way too much into my one sentence. I wrote it to point out that what you are saying does nothing to convince us caveman meat-eaters to consider your "cause". It just rehashes the same old holier-than-thou crap I've heard from every other vegetarian I've ever talked to.

He's the difference between us -- I respect your right to believe whatever you want, to eat whatever you want, and to refuse to eat whatever you want. You refuse to give me that same courtesy, and instead attempt to show me how I am somehow inferior to you as a human being because of my beliefs. Fine, but that just confirms my belief that you are an idiot, and not to be taken seriously.

Rather than wasting your time on this nonsensical "cause", you should seriously consider joining the rest of the world and:

Pleasurably
Eat
Tasty
Animals

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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If humans had intrinsic value, then we would try to have most babies possible, but birth rates are decreasing so we clearly don't value that.

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I don't think this is logical at all. Our population is already so big that our future seems to be in danger. Also, as I wrote in OP, I don't think a being that doesn't yet exist has any kind of value/rights (because it doesn't exist), and a being gets them when it starts to exist.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Define "worth". Therein lies your problem.

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The value of something measured by its qualities. Where's the problem?

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it's not a very helpful definition. you can basically substitute the word "worth" for "value" back into the definition and it means the same thing.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Biggest lie in the history of mankind is that the human species is worth significantly more than other species.

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if people think something is worth more, then it is worth more (to them). there's no such thing as worth independent of desire.

you can say people put value on human life based on false beliefs.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

RoundGuy,

I don't think you're inferior because of your beliefs, I seriously suspect you're a dumb person though, because you are incapable of argumentation and stating WHY you have the opinions that you have (or answering simple questions).

Also, when you think I'm "wasting my time on this nonsensical cause", I'm also looking to discuss this stuff, because I personally think it's an interesting subject (and one that could also tell about how humans, including myself, work psychologically&sociologically), and not only trying to spread veganism, even though I currently support it (but am ready to question my position if shown quality arguments, unlike you).

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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there's no such thing as worth independent of desire.

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So you are a nihilist? I already pointed in OP that my reasoning is only valid if humans have inherit value. If abusing and killing people is ok (if you don't get caught), then doing the same to animals is ok too.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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I don't think you're inferior because of your beliefs,

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I do not believe you are being honest here.

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I seriously suspect you're a dumb person though, because you are incapable of argumentation and stating WHY you have the opinions that you have (or answering simple questions).

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I don't answer your questions because they are not germane to the reason I eat meat.

There is nothing to argue -- I eat meat because I'm hungry, it's easy to prepare, and it tastes damn good.

I like a cute little kitty as much as the next person, but the only thought I give to the "poor cow" is -- damn, this tastes good.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Me macho man, me stronger&personally climbed to top of food chain and eat wtf ever I want.

You also rape women/innocent kids if you think you'd enjoy that?

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yes i would, obviously. why wouldn't i do anything i think i'd enjoy? if you come up with a reason, what's the difference between that reason and a reason that i shouldn't think i'd enjoy it?

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We are so intelligent and animals are dumber than miss South Carolina

Why is this more significant than, say, being able to run faster or fly? Also this would mean young children and mentally retarded people would be available to be used as food.

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it's significant with regard to how we feel about killing and eating because people think it's correlated with the capacity for suffering, while things like flying aren't.

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We can feel pain and suffer but animals can't.

They can. Maybe less, but they definitely can suffer (even fish, according to new studies, although fish don't express emotions well).

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this is pretty much the "god made us different" argument again. there aren't too many atheists saying animals can't suffer.

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We can create and enjoy art

Yeah, so..? Many animals can also enjoy things we can't.

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i don't think that's a complete argument.

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We have consciousness and animals don't

And what exactly is consciousness, why is it so important and where's any evidence that points to the direction that animals don't have it? Many animals are self-aware.

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nobody really knows what it is, but it's important because it seems to be required for suffering. in general, people who think no animals are conscious believe consciousness comes from a soul and god only gave it to us, bible says so.

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We can love others etc.

And well, no animal cares about it's children? Some are monogamous too. Also, most human relationships definitely seem like just trading things, so that both sides benefit. While that's fine, I don't see it making us any more worthy.

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again, it's not a whole argument, it's part of a bigger one.

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We have made a deal with animals that we help them exist in big numbers and then can eat them in exchange

Such a deal definitely has not been made.

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um, ok.

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Life in pain is better than not living at all

If a being never exists, it simply never exists and so can't have any kind of rights or "will to live". And when a being exists it has rights. Just like a person is free to never have kids, but if a child is born, it has rights.

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i think you're talking past this particular argument.

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But why would anyone try to claim that humans would be worth less than others? Because we are capable of doing absolutely sick things (even when not counting animal abuse). From nazis etc. to more common things like raping, scamming, murdering, bullying, adultery, incest etc. that can cause huge suffering, while we can fully realize what we are doing and the pain it causes. Animals do kill, but they are simply not capable of nearly similar, systematic things as us. In the other end of the spectrum, AFAIK there's no evidence that a happy person would be somehow happier than a happy animal, and the opposite could be true as well.

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that's fine if you value animals over humans, but it's not like there's some objective strandard of value and your own sensibilities conform to it more closely than others' do.

you should just call people hypocrites and try to point out ways that their behavior doesn't match the beliefs they espouse rather than criticising their values.

i eat animals because i enjoy it. my eating meat probably causes a few additional animals to be born, raised, and slaughtered. maybe if you could somehow give it a choice, a chicken would prefer not to be born, but the value i get from eating it is enough for me to impose life upon it. you don't need to convince me that animals can suffer, you need to make me feel really bad about their suffering.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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there's no such thing as worth independent of desire.

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So you are a nihilist? I already pointed in OP that my reasoning is only valid if humans have inherit value. If abusing and killing people is ok (if you don't get caught), then doing the same to animals is ok too.

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you said "if humans have inherent rights," which doesn't necessarily mean their rights are something more than the way other humans treat them.

the only thing with inherent value is currency. which is strange, because the value is not intrinsic. do you see why?

abusing people is not OK, because people make it not OK. getting caught has absolutely nothing to do with it.

abusing animals is not OK either. you're begging the question.

someday eating animals could become not OK, but right now it's OK.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Sephus, if I understood correctly, you are basing ethics on social norms and emotion (are you female btw?). Both of those things are based largely, if not completely, on random factors and change a lot. Do you think killing jews in nazi-Germany was ok? Also, how can you then say it would be ok to rape a kid, when it clearly is against the social norm?

Also, intrinsic seems to be a better word for what I ment than inherit.

If you know, what are the bigger arguments that those few things I could recall are parts of?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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There is nothing to argue -- I eat meat because I'm hungry, it's easy to prepare, and it tastes damn good.

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So you don't think ethics exist at all and "might makes right"? Like if a stronger species came (be it aliens or whatever), that enjoyed torturing humans and breeded tons of us for that purpose, you would consider it just a bad beat and there would not be anything wrong about it?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

i would like to see you and howard zinn team up and write "an animal's history of the united states"

if we really were "just another animal species," would we sacrifice our own agendas for the good of other species?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Sephus, if I understood correctly, you are basing ethics on social norms and emotion (are you female btw?). Both of those things are based largely, if not completely, on random factors and change a lot.

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i'm not talking about ethics, i'm talking about morals, but it's not a critical distinction.

i'm not saying morality is "based on social norms and emotion," i'm saying morality is social. you're wrong that "social norms" are based on "random factors." there's nothing particularly random about it.

as for "changing a lot," first there has to be an "expected level of change" to make that judgment, and the fact that social norms change at all has nothing to do with anything.

i am male.

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Do you think killing jews in nazi-Germany was ok?

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no.

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Also, how can you then say it would be ok to rape a kid, when it clearly is against the social norm?

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who is saying it's OK to rape a kid? i said i would rape a kid if i thought i would enjoy it, that doesn't mean it's OK. i think it's disgusting. that's the biggest reason i wouldn't enjoy it.

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Also, intrinsic seems to be a better word for what I ment than inherit.

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yeah but it's still not entirely clear what it means.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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So you don't think ethics exist at all and "might makes right"?

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I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying I'm hungry, and cow is available as food in many different forms, right there at my local supermarket. Ethics have nothing to do with it.

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Like if a stronger species came (be it aliens or whatever), that enjoyed torturing humans and breeded tons of us for that purpose, you would consider it just a bad beat and there would not be anything wrong about it?

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If an alien came to eat me, I'd be food -- not a whole lot I can do about it, eh? Same as if I was a cow.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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If you know, what are the bigger arguments that those few things I could recall are parts of?

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most things are a part of the larger consciousness/capacity for suffering argument.

if people are talking about things like art without trying to relate it back to intelligence/consciousness, then i think they're a little confused.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

oe39,
well, we arent doing that, right? How could you think we are not just another animal species, when we evolved from apes and our intelligence increased mostly because we were physically so weak that it significantly helped us (despite also having disadvantages)?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

RoundGuy,

I'm not very interested what you buy from your local supermarket, I'm interested in whether (and WHY) you think meat should be available to be bought (the big ethical questions). When it's already there, it probably doesn't make a huge difference whether some dude buys it or not.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

You keep trying to inject ethics into an ethically neutral situation. There is no logical or rational reason why meat should not be available in the supermarket. Therefore, there is no logical or rational reason why I should not purchase it and eat it.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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oe39,
well, we arent doing that, right? How could you think we are not just another animal species, when we evolved from apes and our intelligence increased mostly because we were physically so weak that it significantly helped us (despite also having disadvantages)?

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i didn't say i thought that we are fundamentally different from the other animals, and i don't. i'm not quite sure how your reasoning supports this, but whatever.

aren't you saying that our ethics should compel us to sacrifice our own agendas for the good of other animals?

are there other animals that do that?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Define "worth". Therein lies your problem.

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The value of something measured by its qualities. Where's the problem?

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it's not a very helpful definition. you can basically substitute the word "worth" for "value" back into the definition and it means the same thing.

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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

Sephus,

that's what I thought the bigger argument is. And as I said, people also have much larger capability of causing suffering.

How can social norms change then if they're not random? Do you think they are like improving all the time?

Why does capacity to suffer matter, if pretty much all you care about is the norm? Do you think the capacity to suffer is affecting the social norm? If so, the norm is clearly "outdated" since the studies about animal mental abilities are quite new. Should we try to "update" the norm?

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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it's not a very helpful definition. you can basically substitute the word "worth" for "value" back into the definition and it means the same thing.

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Well, how about: value means how something should be treated compared to other beings/objects.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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aren't you saying that our ethics should compel us to sacrifice our own agendas for the good of other animals?

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I don't think the sacrifice would be nearly as big as you think, because we would get used to vegan food quickly (also, for many people, it would make them eat healthier and thus feeling better than before). Also, if whole society switched to vegan food (gradually), being a vegan wouldn't be thought of as "weird" (socially not accepted), which is now a big problem. Also, then obviously the availability of different types of vegan food would be much better, and it would be easy to be vegan. But yes, generally, that's what I'm saying.

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are there other animals that do that?

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Probably not. I don't think other animals are smart enough to think about ethics (and it's not even very easy for us).

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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There is no logical or rational reason why meat should not be available in the supermarket.

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Then where the [censored] is the logical or rational reason why cannibalism is wrong? I repeat my claim (from OP):either abusing both other animals and humans is wrong, or neither is wrong.

Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
 

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Sephus,

that's what I thought the bigger argument is. And as I said, people also have much larger capability of causing suffering.

How can social norms change then if they're not random? Do you think they are like improving all the time?

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the rules of american football change over time, but not randomly.

how could i say our morality is "improving"? what's the goal? whatever i think is good now? it's like asking if my tastes are "improving." do i have a taste for my tastes?

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Why does capacity to suffer matter, if pretty much all you care about is the norm?

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ultimately it matters to me because i have a negative emotional reaction to causing suffering. this is true of most people. i have this negative reaction, in large part, because it was instilled in me through socialization.

when i say "X is wrong," i'm saying "i have a negative emotional association with behavior X." the negative emotion tells me it's wrong, not society. however, socialization has (in large part) caused that reaction in me.

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Do you think the capacity to suffer is affecting the social norm? If so, the norm is clearly "outdated" since the studies about animal mental abilities are quite new. Should we try to "update" the norm?

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it's not the social norm you want to change. people already care a lot about causing suffering. you want to change people's belifs about the nature and extent of animals' suffering.