When a read is not a read.
 

For a while now, I've been seeing posts for a while that say things like this:

Button is 22.5/8.7/.4.
CO is X/Y/Z.
SB is 1/2/3.

...and then the hand comes, and people ask how we should play if Button raises, and if CO coldcalls, and if SB checkraises. And everyone is happy. And the townspeople rejoice.

But I'm realizing something. I especially realized it today during a 4-tabling experiment. While clearing PokerNow's bonus today, I decided to honor the terms of their new T&C and not use any Playerview/GT+/PT software while playing. I 4-tabled $2/4, mostly 4 and 5-handed, and made a conscious effort to pay attention to everything that was going on around me. So I watched hands that I was involved in, and hands that I wasn't involved in, and I took a lot of notes. And I got a lot of stuff like this:

[ QUOTE ]
limped AJo, called down when bet into repeatedly w/no pair

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limped A6s, called flop w/no pair no draw, checkraised when hit runner-runner trips. seems generally passive. calls with any pair to the river, has called river bets w/K-high (KTo) after flop action

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limps with KK, QQ, etc. has limped then folded to a raise several times preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Later, when I was reviewing my session, I realized how many more value bets I was making. Then I looked at the amount of flop/turn bluffs I was making. And the amount of folds that went from being confusing to easy.

And people were happy. And the townspeople rejoiced.

I'm just mentioning this because I'm starting to wonder how many of you are playing more tables that you can handle, or are developing some bad habits -- and it'd be best if you broke those habits now, while it's easy.

So I've got a challenge for you. However many tables you're playing -- cut out GT+/PV/PT for 5k hands. Go ahead and import the hands into PT, but don't export people's stats: export their plays. Do they bet gutshots? Do they check with TPNK, or do they play it aggressively? What kind of hands do they peel with on the flop? What sort of hands do they limp with? Do they give up easily when they limp preflop?

Stop treating your fellow poker players like numbers. Realizing that the 20/8/.5 guy limped with AJo in EP, then called down when the BB (me) bet out on a 62K flop, called when a 7 falled on the turn, and called when a 6 falled on the river (I had 76o).

The difference you'll see in your game will be significant. Give it a try. I know some of you take great notes already, but the rest of you would benefit greatly from paying attention to your surroundings.

Then, when you return to your PT/GT/HUD/XYZ world of realtime stats later on, you'll know that not only is your opponent an 18/7/2 guy, but that he folds ridiculously easy to flop checkraise/turn bet combos.

And people will be happy. And the townspeople will rejoice.

Rob

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I didnt use it by accident one day and it turned out I kind of liked it. I only play 3 tables though.

I love notes like "cappped TPNK on flop against PFR". it says so much more than "Flop: 2.1"

I use GT+ when I'm not sure, or to supplement, normal reads. I also use it to help out isolating maniacs (if I see unknown tight players behind me, for example).

I like this post so much that I'm going to take the challenge.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Another excellent post that has been long overdue. Thanks.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Your post implies that someone doesn't already take notes in conjunction with PT, and I don't understand how the posting of stats (to give reads) gives that impression.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

for myself i prefer exporting certain numbers like aggression factor and folding %s per street. it lets me know who lingers lightly and who usually calls down pairs. but i do agree that when i just chill out and play a couple tables that i feel in the 'zone' much more often.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Good post Rob, and I totally agree (my MT Ratio is 1.15). A must read for all people looking to get better. It also helps if you aspire to be a good live player. Now all I gotta do is work on not playing shitfaced. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Nice post. I've grown accustomed to using gametime as well. More so for the VPIP numbers and PFR. I 4 table as well and take what I think are fairly good notes but not as detailed as yours.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your post implies that someone doesn't already take notes in conjunction with PT, and I don't understand how the posting of stats (to give reads) gives that impression.

[/ QUOTE ]

The posting of stats is not the posting of a read. If a player here has a read on someone, they should be posting their read on that player. Posting it in conjunction with stats (that have converged) is fine, but just posting 22/8/3 isn't all that helpful, as far as having an accurate decision-making process goes.

That's all I'm saying.

Too many players here are too reliant on stats and aren't paying enough attention. It's costing them money.

Rob

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Ok, point well taken. If I could access my notes on a player when I'm not at a table, that would be very helpful.

Just today I noticed a guy who would habitually check-raise as a bluff, but his stats showed him as passive. It made for a profitable note.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, point well taken. If I could access my notes on a player when I'm not at a table, that would be very helpful.


[/ QUOTE ]

Pokertracker -> Import Notes.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Excellent post. For better or worse, I've never used any outside program too overlay stats or anything. I just recently (as in today) exported a few select stats from pokertracker. Even playing four tables, I can still get a decent amount of notes on the people at my tables.

Getting - and more importantly - using reads is one of my biggest weaknesses. I still don't think I'm getting very good reads, so I've been cutting back on the tables lately. Hopefully, I'll start making some headway. My hand reading is already starting to improve (though, actually thinking about a hand really helps [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] ). I have a lot of holes to fill, but I think this one is the most pressing.

Thanks for the post.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I decided to honor the terms of their new T&C

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you comment further on this? I wasn't aware that Party skins were opposed to using PT. (Or is it just GT+ and PV that are prohibited?)

There is a PV thread floating around that says PT Pat has indicated that Party has no problem with his software.

Thanks,

Salty

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I never have used playerview, or gametime ... and don't use PT stats .. I do need to spend more time watching opponents .. i sometimes get into autoplay mode unless villian does something really standout

prob should drop 1-2 tables and work it up ..

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

PokerNow Conditions are different, but I think their TOC is just a scare tactics of sorts, but yeah theres a good chance I could be wrong.

Nevertheless this is a great activity. Eventually you'll be playing at a nonPV/GT-friendly site like absolute, stars, paradise, or pokerroom and 'll be force to take notes. I've found that my threshhold is 3 Shorthanded tables, (anymore and I lose the razor thin edge that I have), and 4-5 fullring tables. If you're not constantly going though the hand histories, you're not playing optimal IMO.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never have used playerview, or gametime ... and don't use PT stats .. I do need to spend more time watching opponents .. i sometimes get into autoplay mode unless villian does something really standout

prob should drop 1-2 tables and work it up ..

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, lately, I've been playing 2-3 tables. I find that's a good balance between paying attention and not getting overly bored. I just don't have the patience for one table unless it's very short-handed or heads-up.

I still can't quite pick up on betting patterns reliably, but I find when I think a hand through, I can usually find a probable range of hands, which is something I didn't bother doing when I first started to play. The only stat I'd really like to have is VP$IP; the rest, I can discern on my own. For whatever reason, I never bother to notate if someone is loose or tight PF (unless it comes in the course of a hand like limping Q3o UTG, etc); lately, I've been forcing myself to try and do so.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

While we're on the subject of notes, an excellent post by bisonbison can be found here.

I'm clearing the Pacific Bonus right now and I know that dropping down to one table and taking lots of notes has done quite a bit to improve my game in a very short time.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I 3 table Party 1/2
I have found that the GT+ stats arn't too acurate early on. I think having 200 hands on someone shows a lot more, but usually I don't have 200 hands on someone. I just use the stats to see roughly what type of players they are. From that I memorize how often they bluff, if they pump draws for value, if they fold to agression a lot,if they auto bet when checked to..etc. I don't actually write the notes down though, there are so many players on Party, I don't play against the same players often.

When I play live, the reads are much easier to memorize because you can put a face to it. Also it's only one table live and you can also use tells.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It also helps if you aspire to be a good live player.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have to admit, I played a home game recently & i wasn't paying attention like i should've and there was no dialog bubble w/ everyone's stats....

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

What he said.

Every once in a while I'll see someone with stats after 20 hands like 12 VPIP, but I'll have a note that they played something goofy like JTo in UTG+1. Sure enough, by the time I'm up to 40 hands I'll see their VPIP at 35 or 50 or whatever and the old-fashioned read was the best and quickest read.

That said, no way am I giving up PT and PV, even for a little while. I only 2-table, so that I can pay pretty close attention to every hand already. I'm not going to go a few k hands deliberately playing with less info than I could have at my disposal, that's negative EV.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Only gays clear bonuses.

Nice post.

And the townspeople will rejoice. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

this is the benefit of Paradise Poker...nothing works [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

my only reads are based on my notes of people. sadly i can't multitable do to my need to "watch everything", but i've found that as i play more, i get more confident and quicker in my reads because at this level people are straight forward.

one thing i've found easier is bluffing and betting for value. and like you said, lay downs become easier. one thing i've tried is to get better catagories of reads to put people in general camps. These are still being tweaked, but why not put them here and get your guy's opinions.

Preflop
Loose - anything. position unaware. High % of hands played. cold call frequently.
sL- semi-loose. semi-position aware (folding more EP). any pairs, suited, off suit connectors, any face card. cold calls with most of these.
sT- semi-tight Average. position aware. between 20%-40% hands played. cold call LP & blinds (with a good hand), pairs, suited connectors, suited face cards. close to 2+2 recommendations and a little looser.
Tight <20% hands played. not necesaarily position aware. only high pocket pairs, overcards. never cold calls.

Preflop Aggression
Aggressive - frequent raise, 3-bet, position unaware.
sA- semi-aggressive will raise, 3-bet.
sP- semi-passive raises if folded too & blind steals LP/blinds, rarely 3-bets.
Passive - rarely raises PRF, might raise AA-QQ. position unaware, doesn't c/r

Postflop
Loose- goes to river with anything, any pair, draw, rarely folds.
sL-semi-Loose- any piece, sees at least turn, rarely folds
sT- generally 2+2er
Tight- only goes past flop with solid hand on flop. easily bluffed if marginal to weak hands.

Postflop Aggression
Aggressive- raises/reraises with anything- draws, pairs, sometimes nothing.
sA- raises any piece, reraises with above 2 pair and strong draws
sP semi-passive- raises only with solid holding that look best, won't bet draws
Passive calls down with top pair, nuts, and never/rarely reraises. if he does, be very careful!

Typical: sLsP-sLsP

So far, you can pretty much start to put people in some camps almost immediately even after you've seen 1 showdown hand. I do better with "hands on" reads rather than stats, but thats just me. it does restrict me to 2-tabling max right now.

i'm trying to use this sort of "general" system because i have too many "plays AQo MP and calls to river UI" and other such things, that i get more confused than helped when needing to make quick decisions.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Good post
I agree that the numbers, although helpful, cannot be the only thing you use. I take notes like a mad man. It's really helpful, you'd be suprised how people never change their betting habits.
If you note that they don't bet their draws, or that they call down with A high when bet into, they tend to be this way the whole seesion. If they are predictable, note that, and its easier to make a fold when they decide to raise.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Hey, I didn't even know I could do that! Thanx! That helps a lot.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Nice post. I did this during my Two Week Challenge (which also involved not checking my balance at all), and it really helped me focus.

Now I mostly use GT to make sure the table hasn't gone tight... not so much for individual reads.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Wow, I can't believe I've never used Import/Export Notes before. This opens up a lot of possibilities for post-game analysis. For example, one could potentially go through HHs after a session and take more detailed notes on specific hands then export them back into your poker client. I think that could be useful at any limit besides 0.5/1 where the turnaround is huge.

I only play two tables at a time, so I'm usually watching one hand all the way through on one of them if possible. If not, I look back in the HH to see the full action before writing a note. I try to focus on pots that were raised or short handed, so most of my notes look like:

-PFR KJs EP, bet Qxx flop, c/f turn blank

or for hands where I couldn't see a player's cards, something a bit more vague but still helpful such as:

-Bet flop & turn and laid down to turn raise on 3-flush card

I think you're right that some players are relying on PV/GT+ too much, but I think it's still very helpful to have it up while playing. I played 1k hands at Gaming Club 0.5/1 and didn't find myself taking any more notes than I do at Party, just not having as much of a "fallback" read as I'm used to having.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

This describes exactly how I take notes on people when I play on Stars.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Great post. again. I hate those x/y/z "reads" expecially when it's over 40 hands...

I've been playing on Pokerroom w/o Gametime and it's been fun and mentally challenging (read - not boring limit grind) to be attentive and keep real reads on players (like I used to). Not to mention that it is much more lucrative too!

So I think I'm firmly off GT for the time being.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I'll take that challenge since I'm very weak-tight. I was just wondering if you just write notes on the plays of your opponents only when they have shown their hand. Or their play in general.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take that challenge since I'm very weak-tight. I was just wondering if you just write notes on the plays of your opponents only when they have shown their hand. Or their play in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

generally its stuff they showdown

things to look out for that aren't SD related, are ppl that LRR w/junk(or the goods) .. ppl that limp but fold to a single raise preflop

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I think it's probably time to bump this thread. Sorry to all those who got all pissed at me the last time, but I just saw this in a thread:

[ QUOTE ]
utg+2 is 56/0, total fish over the first 16 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and with no malice, etc., meant to the person who posted it, something needs to be said. Cuz 16 hands and 56/0 does not a read provide.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I seriusly think this thread should be stickied, because this has been pissing me off the last few weeks. The amount of times people post stats as a read, or post a hand with no reads and are asked to provide them and then throw in some stats. I particularly love the times I see things like, "Only been at the table for 5 orbits so no real reads."

This should be a rule. Stats are not reads. They can back up reads but they are not reads into themselves. They are stats. If we ask for stats then give us the numbers. But if we ask for reads give a damn read. If you don't have them then start making them.

end of rant. Off to work. And I'm not rejoicing.

adam.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

def. a post that needed to be bumped

and Ent when did you go green?

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

yeah seriously thats cool. matches the avatar nicely too.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

I prefer my way the best.

I take no notes
I dont use any of the real time add-on software
And most of the time I couldnt tell you how many players are on the table much less if any of the them are kinda passive after a preflop raise when faced with aggression in the late position after losing a big hand before 9pm at night and has a stack size under 10BB.


IMO, at micro limits about the only really good reason to take notes is to develop good habits for later levels. The players at micro level are too abundant and too erractic to get good notes on.

For those that can take good notes though I applaud you.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Post this in SS.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

Maybe I was on hiatus, but I didn't see this thread first time through.

I haven't used GT+ or any other HUD in over 6 months. I see no reason to ever go back. But whenever I told someone this, they all told me I was making a -EV decision. Instead of starting up the HUD again, I just stopped telling people that I never use it! I can tell more about an opponent in 5 played hands than GT+ can tell me in 500 observed hands.

I use PT to track my own results and archive my "Presto!"s, not to replace my eyeballs and my brain.

Edit: I should also say that I don't normally play more than 2 tables at once.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I should also say that I don't normally play more than 2 tables at once.

[/ QUOTE ]

This edit is key in understanding your "no HUD" game. But I did go without a HUD for a day or two, just to try it out. I took manual notes, but for me the manual notes weren't as good as the stuff I can extrapolate from stats. I'm a good extrapolator (-er?).

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

hehe, that would be me. thanks for helping out. i'll be hiding my red face for the next hour, consoling myself with the fact that the "total fish" really did have the flush (but it does not validate my "read").

i only play 1 table 2/4 right now. the most i've played was 4-table .5/1 and 2-table 1/2. also i tried 4-tabling 1/2 6 max one day, but the action was crazy.

as a side note, i used to play a game with myself when i didn't have PT. i'd buy into SnG, and forced myself to lay down the first 10 hands, unless i picked up a premium hand. during those hands, i tried to memorize as much of the action as possible, who won each big pot, what did they go all-in with, how did someone get knocked out. after the 10-15 hands, i'd jump into the action. it worked well, but then i got into cash games and with all the player turnover that was harder to do.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I should also say that I don't normally play more than 2 tables at once.

[/ QUOTE ]

This edit is key in understanding your "no HUD" game. But I did go without a HUD for a day or two, just to try it out. I took manual notes, but for me the manual notes weren't as good as the stuff I can extrapolate from stats. I'm a good extrapolator (-er?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that's why I edited my original post. Also, I think that taking good notes actually takes a lot of practice. The trick is knowing what sorts of things are note-worthy, and what are red herrings.

Re: When a read is not a read.
 

It is also a good idea to do some abbreviating because you're notes are limited to a certain number of characters (I think bison mentions this in his post). It is also speeds up the notetaking process. When I take notes I always set it up with amount of players in as well raised or unraised and relative position. So, an example of this would be:

4-w E-MP R: B 2 PF-r on F w/nil.

This translates to 4-way, early to mid position, raised: Bet to the preflop raiser on the flop with nothing.
It takes a little bit getting used to reading at first, but it becomes pretty helpful once you're accostomed to it.