Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I run into this situation fairly often. Usually there is either one or two limpres in front of me but I hold a hand like AQ or 1010 that figures to be ahead of their range. However, a normal raise with compensation for the limpers leaves me lil room to work with on the flop, like a psb. And if the flop comes bad for my hand Im left unsure of what to do. Whats the best move, is an allin too big, how about playing smallball kinda with a small raise to like 200 knowing you will get played with, or a normal raise to like 300 or so? Lots of options, need some advice.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t1130)
SB (t4400)
BB (t1660)
UTG (t1323)
UTG+1 (t7385)
MP1 (t6245)
Hero (t1185)
CO (t2570)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, Hero ?

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

shove with that stack and two limpers for sure

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I have the exact same problem and I was about to post the same question ... although I find the problem more post flop - for eg...

PokerStars Game #12020378930: Tournament #60989660, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/09/12 - 16:49:27 (ET)
Table '60989660 19' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Mario300000 (5720 in chips)
Seat 2: Ralf2405 (5493 in chips)
Seat 4: UserZocker (16406 in chips)
Seat 5: thenutzso (9545 in chips)
Seat 6: Pentagruel (10581 in chips)
Seat 7: xxAngéxx (5708 in chips)
Seat 8: pokerskunk (5965 in chips)
Seat 9: bray444 (6320 in chips)
Mario300000: posts the ante 25
Ralf2405: posts the ante 25
UserZocker: posts the ante 25
thenutzso: posts the ante 25
Pentagruel: posts the ante 25
xxAngéxx: posts the ante 25
pokerskunk: posts the ante 25
bray444: posts the ante 25
Mario300000: posts small blind 200
Ralf2405: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bray444 [Kh Qd]
UserZocker: calls 400
thenutzso: folds
Pentagruel: folds
xxAngéxx: folds
pokerskunk: calls 400
bray444: calls 400
Mario300000: calls 200
Ralf2405: checks
*** FLOP *** [9s 6s Qh]
Mario300000: checks
Ralf2405: checks
UserZocker: checks
pokerskunk: checks
bray444: bets 5895 and is all-in

... its clearly an overbet but when any decent bet leaves you committed anyway - I guess the only thing is to shove?

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

[ QUOTE ]
I run into this situation fairly often. Usually there is either one or two limpres in front of me but I hold a hand like AQ or 1010 that figures to be ahead of their range. However, a normal raise with compensation for the limpers leaves me lil room to work with on the flop, like a psb. And if the flop comes bad for my hand Im left unsure of what to do. Whats the best move, is an allin too big, how about playing smallball kinda with a small raise to like 200 knowing you will get played with, or a normal raise to like 300 or so? Lots of options, need some advice.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t1130)
SB (t4400)
BB (t1660)
UTG (t1323)
UTG+1 (t7385)
MP1 (t6245)
Hero (t1185)
CO (t2570)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

At a loose table i would just limp AQs here. There will prob be at least 2-3 more in the pot and your hand plays well in multiway pots. If someone gets aggro and raises from LP, or the blinds, you can shove with good equity.

Raising to 350 and getting it in on any flop is not bad either, but i like this play better with TT-AA.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

This is a really good question,I have exactly the same problem when the stacks are this akward.

I think I like erc007's solution. I never limp in this situation,just absolutely hate doing it with a hand like this,but maybe it is an option. I'm not sure that I agree this hand plays well in a multiway pot,unless you proceed with caution after the flop.Depends on the texture of the flop ofcourse,but I dunno...why do you think it does well multiway?

I like the idea of limpimg or raising big a helluva lot more than shoving though.With these stacks,you are virtually turning your cards face up if you shove pre,It is always AJ/AQ or mid pp.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I like making a bigger raise than normal, say to t350 or t375 and shove any flop. Go and Go style.

Anyhow, I like this better than a normal raise b/c then your bet on the flop is ~PSB. Your hand is too valuable to limp with IMO. Also, a Go and Go works great in this spot b/c even if you miss the flop and get called, you likely have outs to TP; making your flop shove a semi-bluff rather than an outright bluff. So doing this with something like 44, is not so good IMO.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

Sherman,

You like a Go and Go better than just shoving? Certainly with the stacks of UTG+1 and MP1 you can expect a wide calling range that we crush. A go and go, while it helps them make a mistake by folding on the flop also allows them to play it perfect at the same time no? BTW my last sentence confused even me. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I'm just questioning it being better than a shove here.

I guess to simplify things I like getting my chips in against a range that I'm pretty sure I'm crushing especially since I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get a call. Also, I'm happy with no callers as well. I do recognize it as a bit of an overbet. But when the chances of getting called by a worse hand are pretty likely I like my money in the middle. To further that, don't we want full value of our stack instead of letting villian off at a 1/3 of the price?

IMO Shove &gt; Go and Go &gt; Limp

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

Shoving 1.1K into a t175 pot seems like a huge overbet to me and I don't know why anyone would call us.

We are still getting full value out of our stack b/c our plan is to put it all in on the flop. No hand that villain's hold PF can profitably call our 1/3 stack raise and then shove on the flop.

Basically, by putting in 1/3 of our stack PF, we play perfectly post flop. We have no decisions to make b/c we are committed to the pot. In the meantime, we do not let our opponents play perfectly at all (unless they fold PF). Many villain's will ignore the fact that we have put in 1/3 of our stack PF and call. Then we put them to a difficult decision on the flop b/c they did not properly plan their hand.

Unless we expect villain's to call very wide PF (which seems ridiculous to me; but it may not be) I'm pretty confident that a go and go is the optimal line. I suppose if they will call PF with a really wide range we gain more by shoving PF.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I thinking limping is so gross here. I would never, ever ever limp.
I shove every time because A)Taking down 175 pre is pretty good for us at this point, B)One of the big stacks will often call us with what is almost certainly a weaker hand. AJ/KJ/QJ, etc..

Sometimes we'll race 88 but that's fine too with our stack.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

As far as a go and go, I was under the impression that works better when you are oop so you get to act first and shove. If we get a call and we are in position, and they lead into us on a bad flop are we still just shoving it? I hate limping btw too. Why limp when we know we are ahead of limpers ranges and could get value from a raise?

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

Hmmm maybe i'm off a bit on the calling range. And if so then a go and go is best. Intially it seemed very likely to me that you are getting looked up here. If you think you that's crazy then I'll have to reevaluate my thinking in these spots. I just figured big stacks + 4.40 = loose call.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm maybe i'm off a bit on the calling range. And if so then a go and go is best. Intially it seemed very likely to me that you are getting looked up here. If you think you that's crazy then I'll have to reevaluate my thinking in these spots. I just figured big stacks + 4.40 = loose call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

You are probably a better judge of what is calling than me right now. I've been playing a ton of cash games and no one ever calls that sort of bet in cash games. And I haven't a played a 4/180 in quite some time...so don't second guess yourself just yet.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as a go and go, I was under the impression that works better when you are oop so you get to act first and shove. If we get a call and we are in position, and they lead into us on a bad flop are we still just shoving it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely correct Mark and determining the correct play on the flop if villain stop and goes us is going to be tricky. However, I think we can safely fold on K high rainbow flops. We should call on two spade flops as well, especially if we have two overs (no king). I'd probably also call on flops in which I have more than six outs. If we only have what appears to be 6 outs or less, we have to fold. But in those cases, it seems that villain really let us off easy by donk-leading and we should be happy. A villain should not be donk-bluffing into us given the pot-size and our stack size with air...it doesn't make sense to.

Anyhow, do realize that by raising larger than normal PF, we are often picking up this pot PF anyway.

Sherman

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I haven't done the math or anything,and if i'm way off,I apologize,but shoving seems pretty bad to me.I accept that there probably are alot of people that will call w KJ etc here,however,although I agree with butcho that it's OK to take a coinflip when 88 calls,we are still behind.Think I'm being seriously longwinded here,but the point I'm getting to is that for everytime we get called by the KJ type hands,won't we run in to a monster? We are after all in MP,lots of people still to act and if either of them has AK or QQ+....not good for us,so a big raise has to be better.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I agree with the go n go move but theres probably not a ton of difference between it and shoving as we probably do get looked up by garbage a fair amount. Your point about maybe running into a monster doesnt make sense though because if we raise to 350 and someone shoves we are calling anyways so we get it in against monsters either way.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like making a bigger raise than normal, say to t350 or t375 and shove any flop. Go and Go style.

Anyhow, I like this better than a normal raise b/c then your bet on the flop is ~PSB. Your hand is too valuable to limp with IMO. Also, a Go and Go works great in this spot b/c even if you miss the flop and get called, you likely have outs to TP; making your flop shove a semi-bluff rather than an outright bluff. So doing this with something like 44, is not so good IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you nailed it here Sherman. I used to have trouble with this spot, and found doing something like this really yields the best results.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

Folding and limping are both bad, I will add sherman's strategy to my repertoire. Might have made me some money had I known about this.

Great advice sherman. I am always torn between shoving or raising 3xbb. Or in spots with an m of around 10 with AQ utg at a 7 handed table, I hate shoving with AQ getting called by 88 and flipping or not getting action from worse Aces. I also hate making a standard raise getting 3 callers and bricking the flop.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

I would shove 1st in at 50/100 blinds with this stack, and i dont see much difference here with 25/50 blinds and two limpers, except the additional possibility of a limper calling with a dominated hand, so i shove here.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you nailed it here Sherman. I used to have trouble with this spot, and found doing something like this really yields the best results.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do we do in a spot where one limper calls, the flop comes KJ4 rainbow and the limper open shoves? Do we call/fold?

Or what if both limpers stick around, and the flop comes AT5 monotone and not our suit and the initial limper jams and the second limper calls?

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

The point of a go and go is that you aren't really even looking at the flop you are just going.

Re: Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40
 

Raise to 250-350 and then shove any flop unless you hit or some bastard donks into you in which case evaluate.

Edit: in case you haven't read the thread. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]