Authors and Self-Publishing
 

I went to cafepress and did some math. A 300 page book would cost 16 bucks if sold as a print on demand book. This means that the authors of a close to 300 page book like Professional Nolimit Holdem could make 14 bucks per 30 dollar copy.

My guess is that they probably make 3 bucks per copy being published by two plus two. My question is, why don't the poker authors just self-publish as print on demand on cafepress or lulu? Even if they sell less copies they make much more per copy.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

My guess would be that they sell much more than 5x the number of books than they would if they self-published. MUCH more.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

All your numbers are wrong.

MM

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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All your numbers are wrong.

MM

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According to cafepress, binding is 7 bucks and .03 cents per page. That's 16 dollars for an approx. 300 page book. If the authors sell it for 30 bucks that's 14 profit per book if self published at cafepress. Naturally, I can't guess their cut from two plus two. Nor can I guess their total number of copies sold.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went to cafepress and did some math. A 300 page book would cost 16 bucks if sold as a print on demand book. This means that the authors of a close to 300 page book like Professional Nolimit Holdem could make 14 bucks per 30 dollar copy.

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I haven't checked your numbers, but I'm willing to stipulate to them for the sake of argument.

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My guess is that they probably make 3 bucks per copy being published by two plus two. My question is, why don't the poker authors just self-publish as print on demand on cafepress or lulu? Even if they sell less copies they make much more per copy.

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My understanding is that 2+2 authors get more than 10% of the gross sales price of each book. I don't have the numbers, but Mason has been quite proud of how much his authors get per book sale. A $3/copy royalty rate for a $30 book isn't a horrible estimate for many publishers, though.

The other issue is, of course, that a publisher does much more for an author than just take a Word document and create bound books. Here are some of the services a publisher provides:

Marketing
Connections to distributors who get the books to book stores
Copy editing (for self-published books you can either do this yourself, which I don't recommend, or pay someone to do this for you.)
Professional layout work
Provide cover art
Provide internal art

Also, good publishing companies, such as the Pearson imprints or O'Reilly for technical books, or 2+2 or ConJelCo in the poker world, can enhance sales because of the reputation of the publisher.

If you self-publish a book, you have to worry about a lot of things that a publisher takes care of for you. These things take time, which could be used writing a next book.

If you're a well-known poker name, then you can probably sell a self-published book. If you're not a known name, it's difficult to jump-start sales, even if your book is very good. Having a publisher can really help get initial market penetration.

For most big-name poker players who write poker books, I'm guessing the income from the book as a function of the time spent on the project is low on the list of reasons to write the book in the first place, so spending additional time on issues that a publisher can take care of in order to earn extra money at the potential cost of breadth of distribution probably does not seem beneficial.

Whether one self-publishes or not, very few people in the poker world make the majority of their income as a poker book author. I suspect that for most poker authors the books they write are a means more than an end. For these people, optimizing income from each book is secondary.

As a book reviewer, I have to say that the vast majority of self-published gambling books are crap. (A prominent exception to this are Bob Ciaffone's books, which are generally excellent.) Most of these are self-published because no sane publisher would put them out. The reputation self-published books hurts their sales over and above distribution problems. Authors with sufficiently good reputations can mitigate this, again, I'd hold up Ciaffone as an example.

Hope this provides some indication as to why most poker authors prefer to work with a publisher rather than self-publish books.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Hi Nick:

Given the way we print, the cost for 1 and only 1 copy of a 300 page book would be about $10,000. That's because the set up charges for the press are expensive. But if you're going to print a bunch of books, the unit price is a lot lower.

Also, the op doesn't understand that he would have a lot of trouble selling a $30 retail book at wholesale price if he paid $16.00 a copy.

As for our royaltis, I can't get specific because it would give away an authors income, and I think that's private. But our royalty rate ranges from 10 percent of the retail price up to over 25 percent. However, to earn a royalty at the upper end, we need good reason to believe the book will be a great seller.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went to cafepress and did some math. A 300 page book would cost 16 bucks if sold as a print on demand book. This means that the authors of a close to 300 page book like Professional Nolimit Holdem could make 14 bucks per 30 dollar copy.



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They could make $14 gross profit if they sold them on a street corner in LV. If they sold them from their own web site, they would have expenses such as overhead, mailing, etc. Sales either way would not be fantastic. None of the above factor in their time.

If they wanted to sell in book stores, they would have to sell to a wholesaler who would then sell to retailers. No major retailer would buy directly from a self-publisher. A wholesaler would not buy without a wholesale discount, normally around 40-50% off of the cover price. But a wholesaler would not likely buy from an unknown self-publisher either, so the authors would have to use a distributor specializing in self-publishers, who would sell to a wholesaler, who would sell to retailers. The distributor would normally want a 55-60% discount off of the cover price.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Hi Jack:

You got this just about perfect. Spending $16.00 to produce a 30.00 retail book just doesn't work.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

As the author of two poker books published by major firms, I believe publishers provide only one truly essential service: Distribution.

I could find editors and printers myself, and although my printing cost might be higher than a publisher is able to negotiate (since I'd only be printing one book, not hundreds), it would still be low enough to permit me a very generous per book royalty. However my publishers were able to get my books into virtually every major bookstore chain nationwide, which I would have no way of doing on my own. Without that, there's no way my books would have sold anywhere close to the number of copies that they have. Unless you can generate tremendous publicity, you're not going to be able to get bookstores to carry your book on your own, nor are you going to be able to drive large numbers of people to find and purchase your book online.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

There's a reason it's called "vanity press."

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Yes. Although what's changed is that anyone with a platform -- ie. a way of being well known in the field -- could potentially self publish profitably, probably especially those with niche audiences. 2+2 is a great example of this.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

So, with certain limited exceptions, self-publishing is essentially a vehicle for people who have written a book but failed to get it picked up to havew something to show for their work?

I wonder what the percentage is of people who write poker books to those who end up having them published?

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Are you prepared to print many thousands of books and then prvide storage space? How about billing and book packing? What about handling returns? How about chasing after websites that illegally put your book up for free download? And what if your book fails to sell, are you prepared to take the loss?

I think publishers do a lot more than you realize.

MM

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

You are correct -- publishers do provide many valuable services. But virtually all of the logistical and legal services they provide can be replaced for a price. I still think the distribution network is the one thing that can't be bought unless you are a celebrity and have a viable platform from which to publicize your book. It seems to me that what happens in those cases is that publishers pay the author a higher advance and royalty rate, essentially recognizing that they are competing against the celebrities ability to self-publish or purchase certain parts of the services they provide ala carte.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Here's why you should use 2+2: You will not see your self-published book in a bookstore. You are crazy to think that selling through the online community at any profit margin is better than using a publisher and having your book in bookstores nationwide.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

If I am not mistaken there is this old-timed pokerplayer who self-published his first book. Think it was a geat success and sold a lot of copies - so its doable. The number of poker books sold at that time was small compared to the number of poker books sold today so its a lot easier to find a publisher today.

He called it Supersystem, but then Doyle Brunson is a 2 time WSOP main event winner.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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If I am not mistaken there is this old-timed pokerplayer who self-published his first book. Think it was a geat success and sold a lot of copies - so its doable. The number of poker books sold at that time was small compared to the number of poker books sold today so its a lot easier to find a publisher today.

He called it Supersystem, but then Doyle Brunson is a 2 time WSOP main event winner.

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You are mistaken, its commonly known that it was unprofitable to publish SS until recently, it took him years to turn a profit.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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Quote:
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If I am not mistaken there is this old-timed pokerplayer who self-published his first book. Think it was a geat success and sold a lot of copies - so its doable. The number of poker books sold at that time was small compared to the number of poker books sold today so its a lot easier to find a publisher today.

He called it Supersystem, but then Doyle Brunson is a 2 time WSOP main event winner.


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You are mistaken, its commonly known that it was unprofitable to publish SS until recently, it took him years to turn a profit.

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TT is right. I can't remember where I saw it but Doyle started out with a publisher, the book failed, he took over and basically peddled them one at a time mail order from his home, I believe.

I wish I could remember where I read or saw the story.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT is right. I can't remember where I saw it but Doyle started out with a publisher, the book failed, he took over and basically peddled them one at a time mail order from his home, I believe.

I wish I could remember where I read or saw the story.

[/ QUOTE ]
IIRC they were also selling for $50 apiece, which would be equivalent to what, $150 today? There was nothing else like it out there, and it wasn't meant for the guys playing 25c/50c limit on teh internets.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Why don't you guys go over to a "How To Dominate" thread and ask Sam O'Conor about it? I believe he self-published.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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Why don't you guys go over to a "How To Dominate" thread and ask Sam O'Conor about it? I believe he self-published.

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He is not self published.

Guys - I am a publisher. I publish magazines, not books, but I have a very good understanding of the book publishing biz because its very similar. I recently had a discussion with Tommy Angelo about his choice to self publish, like Tommy as long as you understand the risks and dont expect a huge reward its a viable solution if you want to keep your distribution controlled, perhaps limited to a handful of retail stores that you sell directly to as well as your own website/amazon. If you sell more than a few hundred copies of a poker book using this format your a rare survivor. After on-demand publishing costs your lucky if you make $5/book, sell 300 copies and profit 1.5k which in my mind is ridiculously low for the amount of work required to self publish. Tommy's decision goes beyond book sales measurements, I think he made the right choice but most people don't when they try this method.

The only time self publishing might be profitable is when the author orders a large quantity of books from the printer, stores them in a warehouse, and spends a year negotiating distribution deals with the major wholesale distributors. Then releases the book and invests marketing dollars for on-premise displays, PR push, etc etc etc. I don't know for sure but I think this was the route that Bary Greenstein took, only problem is he has admitted already the book hasn't turned a profit (which is probably fine for him, a tax writeoff might be as valuable as a small profit - they don't call it vanity publishing for nothing!)

I hope this explanation clears up some of the misunderstandings, I'll try to remember to check back on this thread soon.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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Why don't you guys go over to a "How To Dominate" thread and ask Sam O'Conor about it? I believe he self-published.

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He is not self published.

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Depends on your definition of self-published. He is published by AuthorHouse, whose website says:

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AuthorHouse, the leading self-publishing company in the world, has helped more than 30,000 authors reach their book publishing goals and self publish more than 40,000 books.

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Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

I don't know anything about publishing but my advice to Tommy Angelo is that he release his book as an ebook. This way we won't have to wait for it in the mail if we buy it. I went to lulu and they give you 80% royalties for an ebook. That's a 16 dollar profit for a 20 buck book. Wow!

He could sell a fifth as much compared to getting published by a publisher and still make more. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Why don't you guys go over to a "How To Dominate" thread and ask Sam O'Conor about it? I believe he self-published.

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He is not self published.

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Depends on your definition of self-published. He is published by AuthorHouse, whose website says:

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AuthorHouse, the leading self-publishing company in the world, has helped more than 30,000 authors reach their book publishing goals and self publish more than 40,000 books.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Interesting. When i met him at the WSOP we talked about the problems he was having with his publisher, I assumed incorrectly apparently. I am very surprised he is taking the print on demand route, his results have been better than what i would expect. I'd estimate he has sold around 1,000 copies so far... it would be very interesting if Sam was willing to discuss this (I understand if he is not, this is privileged information).

Thanks!

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
AuthorHouse, the leading self-publishing company in the world, has helped more than 30,000 authors reach their book publishing goals and self publish more than 40,000 books.

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So, you see, that the average self published author sells about 1.2 books. Good luck.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Very few books that were self-published have had great success. Writers call it "vanity press" for a very good reason.

The one I can think of that had enormous success was back in the 70s, Pulling Your Own Strings by Dr. Wayne Dyer. He drove around the country with boxes in the trunk of his car, trying to sell them to bookstores. He literally lifted his book onto the bestseller lists, and has gone on to a great career. He's by far the exception to the rule.

I'm hoping Tommy does well. It's going to be uphill. Niche books are pretty hard to sell to the mainstream book markets, even poker books.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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I'm hoping Tommy does well. It's going to be uphill. Niche books are pretty hard to sell to the mainstream book markets, even poker books.

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Oddly, I am not so sure Tommy wants the book to do well if that makes any sense. His goals are much higher than the book alone, he is focused on the bigger picture. For him control of content is more important than sales, thats why he is an ideal candidate for custom publishing. I don't think he intends to sell much more than a few hundred books at most while he is going the custom route, but with that said I really admire his vision!

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Hi TT:

I think the right way to look at this is that it's very difficult to be successful when you self-publish. However, Two Plus Two did begin as a self-publishing operation.

Very quickly, what happened was that the publisher I had did not publish my book and after two years of waiting, in 1987 I hired an attorney who was able to get the book back for me. (This publisher went bankrupt and they would have never put the book out.) At this time, I now had three books written and went the self-publishing route.

Ironically, for reasons that would take too long to go through here except to say that the market has changed dramatically in twenty years, I don't believe that what I was able to do in the late 1980s and early 1990s could be done today. So I and Two Plus Two should be listed under the lucky category.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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Hi TT:

I think the right way to look at this is that it's very difficult to be successful when you self-publish. However, Two Plus Two did begin as a self-publishing operation.

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Hi Mason:

From my understanding on demand publishing was not available at the time when you chose to go the self publishing route, you probably had to put a significant investment in a book order, probably more than you could possibly sell in a 1 year period (am I right?). Did this investment encourage you to start 2+2 as a publishing company beyond your own self published books? At what point in 2+2's history did you look in the mirror and say to yourself "wow.... I can't belive I pulled this off!"?

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Hi TT:

In the beginning (1987), the books were just "xeroxed." So in a sense that was like in demand publishing since only a very small number at a time were produced. It wasn't until the next year that I went to a printer (through a local print shop here in town that is now out of business) for print runs of 1,000 copies per book.

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At what point in 2+2's history did you look in the mirror and say to yourself "wow.... I can't belive I pulled this off!"?

[/ QUOTE ]

This didn't really happen until after the great poker boom started in 2003. But we have certainly spent a lot of time the last couple of years discussing how we became so successful, and still don't completely understand it all today.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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But we have certainly spent a lot of time the last couple of years discussing how we became so successful, and still don't completely understand it all today.


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Non self weighting strategies of course [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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But we have certainly spent a lot of time the last couple of years discussing how we became so successful, and still don't completely understand it all today.


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Non self weighting strategies of course [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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2003 coincides with Chris Moneymaker's win. 2 + 2 owes him a simply "Thank you".

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Hi Mike:

Non-self weighting strateigies certainly had something to do with it. We were willing to take risks, and we also went after those things that we thought were really worth while and downplayed much other stuff which conventional publishers other participate in. Simply put, we did do things that would increse our expectation at the cost of increased risk. But we also thought we hit the proper balance.

By the way, I have been told over the years on more occasions than I can remember that we didn't have a clue on how to run this company. In reality, it was someone who didn't understand non-self weighting strategies.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi TT:

In the beginning (1987), the books were just "xeroxed." So in a sense that was like in demand publishing since only a very small number at a time were produced. It wasn't until the next year that I went to a printer (through a local print shop here in town that is now out of business) for print runs of 1,000 copies per book.

[ QUOTE ]
At what point in 2+2's history did you look in the mirror and say to yourself "wow.... I can't belive I pulled this off!"?

[/ QUOTE ]

This didn't really happen until after the great poker boom started in 2003. But we have certainly spent a lot of time the last couple of years discussing how we became so successful, and still don't completely understand it all today.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

"80% of success is showing up." Woody Allen

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Okay, I’ll join in. I’ll relate some of my experience in publishing “How to Dominate” and maybe it can be of use to someone.

I’ll categorize publications into three groups, although there are many sub-variations.

1) Traditional. Every writer wants the traditional kind of publisher. But the publisher has to know he’s going to sell books and he turns away a few million manuscripts per day, so to speak. He’ll edit, proof, design, lay-out, graphic design and generally shepherd the book into something he thinks the public will buy. Then he’ll publicize it to the extent he thinks the publicity expense is cost effective. He’s everybody’s kind of publisher but hard to impress. A poker book is a niche book generally viewed as not having universal appeal.

2) The “self publishing” kind of publisher is accommodating but low on services. In order to get a book at a decent price, you’ll have to buy a thousand books when it goes to print. Five thousand books will get you an even better price. Then you’ll have to warehouse the books. You’ll have to sell a big bunch and distribute them before you’ll break even on your purchase price. You’ll spend money on warehousing and marketing and there’ll be time in effort value, as well.

3) Then there is the print on demand publisher, POD. With him, you buy as many books as you like, when you feel like it. This publisher makes most of his money in up front fees. After receiving your money, his enthusiasm wanes. He does this on purpose so he can charge you more for putting you on the “fast track”. The difference, supposedly, will be in converting your program from a six month publishing schedule to only one month. In the duration, he will try to sell you publicity and other services at exorbitant prices, the effectiveness of which you seriously doubt because he is already behind in the agreed upon fast track schedule for publishing the book. Meanwhile, he has your money. Still, POD is the easiest entry to authorship using a small investment, and so you may choose to do business with this vulture. Let the haggling and the threatening begin.

As Mason and TT have ventured, most poker authors don’t write a book as an income staple. I wrote Dominate so I would be published and I wanted to leave a few nuggets for posterity. At the time I started the book, I wanted to do two more things while on this planet – publish a book and be in a movie. Both were accomplished in the poker community with Dominate and Lucky You.

I‘m four months older than Doyle Brunson. We used to cross swords occasionally when we were much younger and it’s fitting that we’re both in Lucky You. Fun stuff. (Lucky You is now on DVD.) But I digress.

Don’t make the following mistakes: One mistake is publishing a book that’s too big. Because it’s a first book, Dominate perhaps has too much content; and so I’m paying for too many pages. It contains a literary apology, lots of poker, a few stories and characters, and even has two glossaries. It was a mistake to write for both the new player and the experienced player in the same book. The problem, of course, is the book is too big and sells for too little. On the plus side, most people say they find something beneficial and most readers say they find a lot. That part is very satisfying.

When we play any game, we like to win big and, often, we’re willing to settle for a little. But we never like to lose. I chose the POD plan for publication because it involves the least in money investment. I chose the smallest investment package possible, adding only the “fast track”. The package included listings with Amazon, Barnes & Noble and Borders. I turned down everything else Author House wanted to sell me. That meant that I did my own formatting, editing, proofing, cover design, pictures, graphics and copyrighting. The advantage was the lower out-of-pocket costs left me with a break-even of fewer than 200 book sales. Because I got more than 200 orders on the first day, including those from Mike at Professional Poker, my stack started growing with the first pot. Using the minimum buy-in and pushing all-in on the flop proved to be a winner.

My only marketing efforts, to date, are at my site and a couple of other websites with forums. Additionally, Amazon and two other national stores have my book. I personally keep the local independent Las Vegas book stores supplied. Another contributor to my early win is that the book has been well received and has benefited from some good word of mouth. (Nice guess of one thousand books sold, TT, but a little short.) Other results: I’m doing some good coaching for winning players and I’m writing a column for Poker Pro magazine.

Most of the numbers quoted in this thread concerning costs and percentages for books are wrong, with the exception of Mason’s accurate information. Mason knows exactly what he is talking about. (If the café press numbers have been correctly represented here, I would stay well away from them.)

One of the tricks in playing at the table with POD publishers is to make them aware that you are not the usual “vanity” player; you are not grandmother publishing your granddaughter’s high school poems. And don’t bother with the usual “representative” at the POD. Get a supervising floor man to handle your red hot book; you’ll get better and quicker hand decisions and you’ll do better in the game. But you’ll likely still have to use the “L” word now and then. “I’ll have to see my lawyer about this.”

My percentage per book is higher than any conjectured in this thread. While the publisher still gets a good rake, there is enough room for me to sell wholesale to local retail stores.

So, after writing the book, then formatting, editing, proofing, doing graphics, cover design, legal considerations, haggling, and handling the limited marketing, is there a profit?

It depends on the word profit. Anyone can make more money flipping burgers for two years than the money I have made in two years with the book. But authorship is much more satisfying. Feedback from readers is more heartwarming than a Big Mac.

I’m assembling my Las Vegas short stories (thank you, TT) and another poker book. Will I do another POD publication? I doubt it.

Sam

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

You know... back in the day Alvarez used to grab his books off the poor shelf, and stick them infront of other books on the main shelves whenever the store managers were not looking.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

I still put my books in front of the other poker books (including 2+2!) in the poker section whenever I'm in a bookstore.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

[ QUOTE ]
(Nice guess of one thousand books sold, TT, but a little short.)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's amazing to me that so many people in the country play poker, and relatively so few will read a poker book.

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

Very interesting post, howtodominate.

You paint a fairly gloomy picture of the possibilities for an aspiring poker author, though - particularly if you're one who genuinely wants to make profit rather than write a book for personal achievement purposes...basically get picked up by a traditional publisher or don't bother...

Re: Authors and Self-Publishing
 

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basically get picked up by a traditional publisher or don't bother...

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Or do what Micon and those other e-book writers do and possibly make good money affiliating their "systems" as ebooks on clickbank. Or do they make little money too?