I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

NOTICE STACK SIZES BEFORE YOU FLAME PLZ

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $435.20
BB: $216.90
UTG: $403.10
MP: $208.85
Hero (CO): $391.00
BTN: $37.00

Reads: <font color="blue">Hero built his stack in like 8 hands by playing really aggro preflop then bet/shoving aces into jacks preflop. Villain is more or less unknown, but has the name UTG making me think he's less donkish. Don't know how he got his stack</font>

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $7.00</font>, MP folds, Hero calls $7.00, 3 folds

Flop: ($17) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $12.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $50.00</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $140.00</font>, Hero folds

Pot Size: $207.00

I'm pretty awful at playing deep, but I'm sure that preflop and flop are good. How do react to his 3bet?

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

calling the flop is much better than raise folding

when you raise THAT flop, you're gonna get raised or folded on pretty often

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Pre-flop is bad, as played I don't mind the fold.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Ughh...there are like 239056 draws out there. Raise/folding is just so terrible. And you're not even THAT deep.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

What's his range? QQ+ and AK? Anyone got a stove versus that range?

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Pre-flop is bad

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PF is fine against an UTG open.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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calling the flop is much better than raise folding

when you raise THAT flop, you're gonna get raised or folded on pretty often

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Thought about this, but aren't there a gagillion cards that suck for me on the turn? I guess being in position makes it easier to play. This might be one of those 'you can raise, but if you do you can't fold' spots.

Also, I think that any other play preflop sucks.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Preflop is whatever. Raise/folding the flop is lol though.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Preflop is whatever. Raise/folding the flop is lol though.

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You prefer smoothcalling or raise/shoving?
Knew I butchered this one.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Preflop is whatever. Raise/folding the flop is lol though.

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You prefer smoothcalling or raise/shoving?
Knew I butchered this one.

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If I was going to fold to a shove after the raise I would flat call the flop. I would prefer to just raise/call(push) though.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Pre-flop is bad

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Erm, no its not in the slightest.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Preflop is whatever. Raise/folding the flop is lol though.

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Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

i don't see me ever EVER folding a set of jacks here vs an unknown. 54000BB deep maybe, but not just for 200. Just stick it in. I've seen guys do this with TcTx, AcKc, AcKx, KQ, (maybe KJ), QJ if he's bad. the thing is that you don't have a good enough read to fold this profitably after raising the flop.

another option is to just call the flop and get it in on a brick turn.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Pre-flop is bad

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Erm, no its not in the slightest.

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Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

just raise/call push.

You beat so many hands and have good equity vs most of the others. Just calling the flop bet is an option but I think raising is better.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Interesting thing about this spot is there really aren't that many combo draws, not good ones anyway. AcKc and that's about it. I never would have folded this, but I think it's very close. Sticking around here involves investing another ~$340 to protect $57 already invested. His range is probably something like AcKc, AT, T9, KK, QQ, KQ, KJ.

I might like this, which is weird because I don't fold sets ever.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Interesting thing about this spot is there really aren't that many combo draws, not good ones anyway. AcKc and that's about it. I never would have folded this, but I think it's very close. Sticking around here involves investing another ~$340 to protect $57 already invested. His range is probably something like AcKc, AT, T9, KK, QQ, KQ, KJ.

I might like this, which is weird because I don't fold sets ever.

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Pretty decent point, but some people like to open SCs from any position. Hell, I could even imagine TT doing this.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

"aren't there a gagillion cards that suck for me on the turn?"

If there are, then unles he has Ac Tc or 9c Tc, which are a very small portion of his range IMO, then there are a gagillion cards that suck for him too. And you are the one in position.

Preflop I would play the same; flop I would flat call again. Maybe you can boat up or if not you get to see what he does again, and can utilize your position in that you get to gain more info on his hand while your perceived range is presumably still quite large.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Interesting thing about this spot is there really aren't that many combo draws, not good ones anyway. AcKc and that's about it. I never would have folded this, but I think it's very close. Sticking around here involves investing another ~$340 to protect $57 already invested. His range is probably something like AcKc, AT, T9, KK, QQ, KQ, KJ.

I might like this, which is weird because I don't fold sets ever.

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Pretty decent point, but some people like to open SCs from any position. Hell, I could even imagine TT doing this.

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IMO, it is a rare beast who b/3b's a flush or straight draw 200bb deep on that board at the Party 200NL tables.

Like I say, in the flow of the game I just shove and then maybe he shows TT and I gape at the screen in disbelief, but really, if he has a hand other than two pair that's behind he has played this not just very badly, but also with a reckless abandon that is uncommon for SSNL players who are deep.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Jack that's kind of an interesting aside. I don't even know whether it's important in the least, but raising the flop makes it real easy for him to play almost every hand in his range. Calling could make his life miserable on the turn.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

ugh. I'd be pissing my pants too with 200bbs

I would definitely have raised pre especially given that he raised UTG. By calling, you have no idea where you stand. Better to invest more pre so you can play it easier postflop.

As played I don't fault you for folding.

Edit: Actually I take that back. Shove is good.

Against AA KK QQ, your set of jacks is only 43-57 dog according to stove. If you include AK KQ along with QQ+, you're a 68-32 favourite.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

good post kei.. call&gt;r/f

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

I would not put him on anything but 2pair or AK, either way you have him dominated. A-10 is not that strong a lead out hand, but yeah, he could have it. I would prefer to go broke with the set on the flop if he had the nuts, but think that you are prob good, plus your 8 outs to a FH mean even if he catches the straight, you can still come back. After more play with him what did you think he had?

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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I would definitely have raised pre especially given that he raised UTG. By calling, you have no idea where you stand. Better to invest more pre so you can play it easier postflop.

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This is all very wrong. Just because it's "easier to play"...doesn't mean it's the most +EV.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Okay, got on a computer with Stove. It's a shove. I thought with a range this narrow and two over set possibilities you'd have had much less equity than this, but even if he never gets out of line you're only a slight dog.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

38,610 games 0.005 secs 7,722,000 games/sec

Board: Kd Jc Qc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.405% 44.37% 01.03% 17132 399.00 { JhJs }
Hand 1: 54.595% 53.56% 01.03% 20680 399.00 { KK-QQ, AcKc, ATs, KQs, T9s, ATo, KJo+ }

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Why isn't AxA[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in there? Hell why not all combos of AA?

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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I would definitely have raised pre especially given that he raised UTG. By calling, you have no idea where you stand. Better to invest more pre so you can play it easier postflop.

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This is all very wrong. Just because it's "easier to play"...doesn't mean it's the most +EV.

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Why not? You set the stage to reduce the chances that you'll make a mistake. Why wouldn't you want that? Unless the UTG opener is a nit, JJ has a good chance of being ahead of his range plus you have fold equity and position. You also reduce the chances that people behind you will call, which is not something you want with high pocket pairs.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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You also reduce the chances that people behind you will call which is not something you want with high pocket pairs.

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there is no one behind you on the flop

pf you make things easier for villain if you raise (btw also true for flop)

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Raise/folding isn't really terrible when you consider stack sizes. It's not like we expect to be 3bet 200bbs deep on this flop that often either, so I disagree with Keikiwai that you're getting 3bet on this flop a lot of the time. 100bbs deep yes raise/folding is terrible, but when stacks get deeper raising for value and folding to a reraise isn't as crazy as it sounds.

If he is good his range should pretty much be KK/QQ/AT/T9 as well as air and maybe something like AK clubs. But I don't think you're going to see a good player play two pair this hard on this board almost ever.

In conclusion, folding seems fine and so is raising the flop.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Calling three PSB's (barring a Ten on turn or river) has much more value than raise/folding imo.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Calling three PSB's (barring a Ten on turn or river) has much more value than raise/folding imo.

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Well obviously with a set if you're folding to a raise you shouldn't be raising.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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I would definitely have raised pre especially given that he raised UTG. By calling, you have no idea where you stand. Better to invest more pre so you can play it easier postflop.

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This is all very wrong. Just because it's "easier to play"...doesn't mean it's the most +EV.

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Why not? You set the stage to reduce the chances that you'll make a mistake. Why wouldn't you want that? Unless the UTG opener is a nit, JJ has a good chance of being ahead of his range plus you have fold equity and position. You also reduce the chances that people behind you will call, which is not something you want with high pocket pairs.

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because easy != +EV, and JJ is rarely ahead of his range for calling your 3-bet, so you're sucking all the value from it. LOL @ playing JJ for folding equity

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Pre-flop is bad

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Erm, no its not in the slightest.

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edit: calling &gt;&gt; b/f

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Calling three PSB's (barring a Ten on turn or river) has much more value than raise/folding imo.

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Well obviously with a set if you're folding to a raise you shouldn't be raising.

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Well this obviously isn't obvious to OP because he bet/folded. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Versus a really really straightforward ultra nitty villain you could conceivably save money by bet/folding sets, but this is so rare that it's not worthy of consideration imo.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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Okay, got on a computer with Stove. It's a shove. I thought with a range this narrow and two over set possibilities you'd have had much less equity than this, but even if he never gets out of line you're only a slight dog.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

38,610 games 0.005 secs 7,722,000 games/sec

Board: Kd Jc Qc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.405% 44.37% 01.03% 17132 399.00 { JhJs }
Hand 1: 54.595% 53.56% 01.03% 20680 399.00 { KK-QQ, AcKc, ATs, KQs, T9s, ATo, KJo+ }

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This totally sells the shove for me. I thought I was way further behind his range. I know I shouldn't be raise/folding with sets, but I've never had a 2BI pot at 200NL before and I kind of panicked, hence the thread title.

Good posts guys, thanks.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

As I stated before, villain has to be pretty terrible to 3 bet this flop with KQ/KJ 200bbs deep.

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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As I stated before, villain has to be pretty terrible to 3 bet this flop with KQ/KJ 200bbs deep.

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I don't think that it's too unreasonable for an unknown party 200NLer to do. They probably should be weighted lighter though, but on the flipside so should AT and 9Ts

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

Never folding this.

Also, Preflop dont matter anything

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

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As I stated before, villain has to be pretty terrible to 3 bet this flop with KQ/KJ 200bbs deep.

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I don't think that it's too unreasonable for an unknown party 200NLer to do. They probably should be weighted lighter though, but on the flipside so should AT and 9Ts

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I'm not saying people don't play KQ/KJ this way, I'm just saying that a good villain will play much much more cautiously with two pair on this flop 200bbs deep. I don't see the correlation between AT/T9 and KQ/KJ though, maybe you could fill me in?

Re: I suck (folded a set of jacks on the flop)
 

You can't fold this on the flop. Even against a ridiculously narrow range you've got great equity. And if he is decent his range is not so narrow as some folks are saying.

As for preflop, calling is OK, but IMO 200BB deep you should be reraising a much wider range of hands than you would with 100BB, assuming he's not a nit. It makes his life very difficult.