20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

hi all, my first hand post in medium, so all comments are appreciated.

foxwoods 20/40, my first time in the game. my image is tag and i've been showing down winners.

game is playing fairly passively for what this game can do sometimes, from what i've heard and sweated. most pots are 3-4-5way with some raising pf. the two big spots at the table are a crazy lag asian guy in seat 1, who can put in a lot of action in sort of bad spots but usually has something, and a just horrible spazzy guy in seat 8 whose mission is to put terrible beats on the asian guy (bc of a previous beat). seat 8 is very passive preflop and very out of line postflop.

seat 1 is mad at me because of a previous hand where i raised k[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]j[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] first in in mp, all folded, he calls in bb, flop q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]t[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and we went 7 bets on the flop, and i hit a king on the turn and a flush on the river and he flashed red aces.


okay anyway the hand:

seat 1 raises utg, folds to me, i 3bet t[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]t[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], folded to seat 8 who coldcaps (4bet cap at foxwoods). i haven't seen him do this or even really raise pf before. seat 1 can't get his chips into the pot fast enough. i call.

flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
lag leads out, i raise, spaz insta3bets, lag instacaps.

how much action do you guys feel like i should be putting in here? should i be thinking about folding given certain turn cards and the risk of being sandwiched for 8 more bets by showdown? or is that weak and should i be spreading some jam on the sandwich?

thanks, and i hope to stay up at 20/40 and post more here in future.


*edited to say that i realize people are going to say call the flop, but i wanted to think of a plan for the whole hand at this point if that makes sense.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

Well I had the "call the flop" part down solid. After that I'm not so sure.

At this point are you just assuming the LAG has ATC? And how do you think seat 8 views you? Does his hatred for the LAG burn hot enough that no action on your part will cause him to fold something like QQ,JJ? What about unpaired overs like AQ, AK?

A lot probably depends on reads/feel, but if an undercard hits turn, I'd raise LAG's bet to put pressure on seat 8 who might fold his overs and root for you to vanquish his foe.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

the lag when he went hard always had some piece of it at least. the spaz was really unpredictable post but i'd never seen him do that preflop before. and yea it was a hatefest, i don't think the spaz is ever folding any of those hands you mentioned here. i was also about 80% sure at least that turn and riv were gonna get capped (just a feeling at the time). i wasn't sure if that makes it almost a math problem in one approach. also if i had aces and not tens i think it makes this much easier, obviously.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

bang bang u dead

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

Well... I pretty much hate every option. I think folding the flop sucks. I hate calling the flop then raising the turn and folding to a cap. I hate calling the turn then folding to a threebet. Calling a cap on turn and getting strung along on the river feels like way too much action.

The problem here is that seat 8 hasn't done anything like this preflop. The other problem is that when people are faced with three bets cold, they often do strange things. Its the whole "if I'm going to coldcall, I may as well cap". When your against a LP, that could be dangerous.

So I basically don't know.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

I was considering folding to the flop donk. Thoughts on this?

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

I was thinking folding to the 2 bets back to hero on the flop. You have raised every street so far and have been raised on every street so far. I don't think you are ever good here.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

I'd just fold the flop when it's capped. I think you're only getting like 11:1 and even if you aren't beat there's a good chance you're dodging 11-12 cards in the deck.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

Yeah, my impression of live play is that this is a flop fold once it's two back to you.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

The correct play is to not jump into a 20-40 game just because you've grown up and left Vermont [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

Even the crazies pick up hands. Give it up once it gets capped on the flop. Your reverse implied odds at that point are exceedingly bad. Feel good that it only cost you 3 bets.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

Live games are generally passive. Foxwoods live game are generally super passive. Once it's two bets back to you, like Dicky V used to say, "Send it in, Mutombo!"

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

i'm really leaning towards folding here.

given that you are against the two worst players at the table, with one gunning after you, i really don't think you should consider raising the turn UI if you decide to proceed with the hand.

with this kind of action, i really believe the optimal line after folding is c/c the turn as popping it up will only proceed you to get 3bet by a better hand and called down by everything else. Anyone with a-k + bd flush draw (is what i put one of them on) is peeling all the way, and I just can't see that you are ahead that much of the time for the other part of their range for this to be profitable.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

Fold in this spot. You're facing an overpair, both of these guys aren't jamming with just overcards with this board.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

absolutely zero chance that you have both opponents beat insta muck

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

ditto!

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

seat 1 is mad at me because of a previous hand where i raised k[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]j[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] first in in mp, all folded, he calls in bb, flop q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]t[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and we went 7 bets on the flop, and i hit a king on the turn and a flush on the river and he flashed red aces.

NICE

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
absolutely zero chance that you have both opponents beat insta muck

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Oh there's a chance, we're just not sure it's worth it. I wouldn't be suprised if the LAG has some kind of nine.

Re: 20/40 gross spot with overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
absolutely zero chance that you have both opponents beat insta muck

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a chance that he's against a 9 and two overcards. The problem is he's going to have to pay a lot to get to the river, and even if his hand is good on the flop, there are four overcards that can create problems before the river. I'd lean toward folding the flop, but I might peel one off and hope to improve or to see if the action slows down.