KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Ok, so ive been at the table for an hour running very well, raising alot preflop and betting and hitting alot of flops.

So now I get KK utg and raise to 40 (standard) and its folded to SB who calls, then BB makes it 140, I call and SB folds. BB has a stack of 6000 and is laggish. He also made a min-raise flopbluff against me in a raised pot a couple of orbits ago and then showed.

Flop(340) 7-8-5r BB bets 350 and I call.

Turn(1040) 5 BB bets 1000, I call.

River(3040) Q BB bets 2000, I call.

What irritates me with this hand is that I just call all the way but at the same time I cant find a good spot for a raise either. Can you?

If you fold the river would your decision change if the river brought a low card?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

What range of hands will laggy BB reraise with here? Probably not 69, maybe medium to high pair or two big cards?

If I'm villian, I find it easy to put you on an overpair on the flop call, 95% sure after the turn call. Do I think I can blast you off the hand with a bluff? Do I still bet the turn if it made me a boat? If I know the table sees me as a LAG, I don't think I can push the overpair off, and I do continue betting 77 or 88 when I boat up on the turn against a perceived overpair.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

With these stack I'd much prefer to reraise preflop. As it is, I'm probably folding the turn.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

How laggish is he? Would he reraise TT preflop? Would he put you all in with JJ+ if you raise the turn? If he would, you have your answer.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

I don't think you want to be just calling down with stacks this deep. The queen falling on the river is the pefect example of why;
unless he is on a stone cold bluff, he can really only have aces, or trip queens, both of which you loose to. I think jacks would have slown down on the turn.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

WOW. You paid off 335BB with crappy one pair hand... I think folding the turn is in order.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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What range of hands will laggy BB reraise with here? Probably not 69, maybe medium to high pair or two big cards?

If I'm villian, I find it easy to put you on an overpair on the flop call, 95% sure after the turn call. Do I think I can blast you off the hand with a bluff? Do I still bet the turn if it made me a boat? If I know the table sees me as a LAG, I don't think I can push the overpair off, and I do continue betting 77 or 88 when I boat up on the turn against a perceived overpair.

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this is the first time he has reraised me preflop. i dont know what range he could be doing this with, since I only been there for an hour and the player is unknown to me. He is not the kind of lag that reraises much preflop. Actually i think this is the first time ive seen him do it.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

I can't see how the turn is possibly a fold. The river is probably a fold, though.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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WOW. You paid off 335BB with crappy one pair hand... I think folding the turn is in order.

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Villain could be betting turn with overpair, bluff or monster. So you still think folding the turn is the right play?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Wait, you're saying he'll reraise preflop with pair lower than kings, then pot the flop, and then the turn, and not consider himself to be bluffing?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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I can't see how the turn is possibly a fold. The river is probably a fold, though.

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What about if the river is a low card?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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I can't see how the turn is possibly a fold. The river is probably a fold, though.

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What about if the river is a low card?

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I call probably. Unless it's a big bet and you know he won't make a big bet with a worse hand. But many players will play QQ and even JJ exactly like this. And some "laggish" players will do this with many worse holdings.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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Wait, you're saying he'll reraise preflop with pair lower than kings, then pot the flop, and then the turn, and not consider himself to be bluffing?

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I know I could so I guess he could.. But as I said I dont know the player well.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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WOW. You paid off 335BB with crappy one pair hand... I think folding the turn is in order.

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Agree.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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I can't see how the turn is possibly a fold. The river is probably a fold, though.

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What about if the river is a low card?

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I call probably. Unless it's a big bet and you know he won't make a big bet with a worse hand. But many players will play QQ and even JJ exactly like this . And some "laggish" players will do this with many worse holdings.

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This is why I think its so hard to play this hand. If he has JJ or QQ I dont want to raise because I can get value on a good river from those hands. And if he has AA then... then maybe I want to raise? And when he his bluffing I want him to keep bluffing.. So its really hard for me to raise in this hand.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Agreed, no reason to raise in this hand and no one is suggesting that you should. In fact, everyone is suggesting that you should fold.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Seriously, what range are you guys putting a laggy player on to fold this turn?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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Seriously, what range are you guys putting a laggy player on to fold this turn?


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A set, 56, or aces. In my mind, anything else is a bluff. I really can't see a reasonable player betting tens or jacks like this for value, maybe queens.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

I don't understand how you think there are players who will re-raise 56 out of position preflop but won't bet 2 streets without beating KK on this ragged board.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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I don't understand how you think there are players who will re-raise 56 out of position preflop but won't bet 2 streets without beating KK on this ragged board.

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"Laggy" means he'll play a whole buch of hands (including maybe 56s). It doesn't mean he's bad. I don't see how betting TT/JJ like this is anything but spewing chips.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

this thead is retarded.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

folding the turn sucks.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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Seriously, what range are you guys putting a laggy player on to fold this turn?

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He can have str8, set, 2pair, AA or bluff. What is really important here is our range, not his. If I called his reraise preflop and then flop bet my range there is : set - 7combos, JJ-QQ-KK 18 combos , AA - 6combos. After his turn pot bet I can happily fold at least 50% of my range without worrying about being bluffed. In actual play I can fold a lot more because : a)most players when they bet big with deep stacks actually have a hand b)most players will bet again on the river (so I can extract more with my stronger hands) c)some players after bluffing the turn will fire again on the river d)most players will pay me off here with other overpair if I have a set.

Summing this all up I can safely fold my lesser overpairs cause I will extract real fortune with my sets here (AA is more problematic hands, cause if we had AA Villain often has KK and he in fact maybe value betting big with that hand). The beauty of this reasoning is that I will gain a lot as long as Villain is loose preflop and plays aggressively postflop with many diffrent hands. I dont really care if he is bluffing or not. If he always bluff that way - fine I will extract sth from him if I have better hand here next time.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

fsu, does this mean you play the hand like OP did?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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Agreed, no reason to raise in this hand and no one is suggesting that you should

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Raising with that hand is actually retarded. You dont beat anything normal on the turn. The only hopee is that we will make some money if Villain is either bluffign or stupid enough to value bet QQ/JJ raising takes away this last hope...

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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this thead is retarded.

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Thank you. What a bunch of nits you guys are to suggest that you should fold the turn.

The only spot that sucks a little here is the river, at which point he's seen you call 1K, so he knows you are strong, and still bets 2K when the Q hits. At that point, he could be said to be bluffing with less than AQ, and he can't feel great about AQ.

Regardless, if you are thinking about folding on the turn, this guy is not LAGgy. Well played until the turn call, and in many cases, calling is right there, too. Those cases are the ones in which he will not shut down a bluff when you call a thou. Good LAGs probably will, so you are just giving THEM a free shot to spike a 2 or 3 outer on you by smoothcalling the turn.

The fact that he bet big, but didn't move all-in on the river is fairly scary. Regardless, I am usually calling here, knowing that I probably messed up on the turn.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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The only spot that sucks a little here is the river,

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Cero, c'mon I can see calling the turn vs really crazy maniacs but river doesnt suck at all. Its pure 100% easy fold. It would be tough if Villain had bet 1k instead of 2k for example.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

shoving turn is sometimes correct here

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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The only spot that sucks a little here is the river,

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Cero, c'mon I can see calling the turn vs really crazy maniacs but river doesnt suck at all. Its pure 100% easy fold. It would be tough if Villain had bet 1k instead of 2k for example.

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OOOOOOOO 2k!!!!! Please check the size of the pot.

It's only 2/3 pot at this point. In every game I play this is a call.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Punter,

If you keep thinking this "OMG xxBB with one pair! What a fish play!"

You will get just torn up by creative players. Stop making general statements about hand strenghts, you can't assign a value of 'one pair'.

It would be better to say something along the lines of, your call here with KK is likely the same as a call with 82o on this board, you only beat a bluff.

I would say, my default line here, is to call the turn and fold the river, but against some a turn fold is clear and against some a river call is clear.

You also mentioned this would be hard if villain bet 1k... I think you are looking at a better hand if villain bets 1k more than you are from a villain who bets the pot, generally.

But seriously, you sound really idiotic when you keep making these 'one pair! omg! fold!' statements.

-Jason

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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You also mentioned this would be hard if villain bet 1k... I think you are looking at a better hand if villain bets 1k more than you are from a villain who bets the pot, generally.


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Really? I think 2K is more likely to be "Wow, I just hit my Q. Call my big bet with you AA!" and 1K is more likely to be "c/f is weak with AA (JJ?) even though I'm beating nothing, so here's a little blocking bet. Easy fold to a push."

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

This is something I've recently started noticing. The natural bias of responses based on players' personal table image and resultant opponent tendencies. I've seen punter play and know that he is extremely tight. As a result, when he is in this situation with KK, he will never be ahead if he takes it to the river because his opponents for the most part will know that he isn't in there w/ A8.

I've never seen you play Strassa, but from the posts that I've read it seems like you have a much looser, more aggressive table image. Consequently, auto-folding this hand for you seems like a horrendous play.

The problem with punter's post isn't necessarily that "omg one pair for 440 bb's...auto fold". The problem is that he assumes he is the hero in this hand.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Strassa will bet T-high for value because he is so crazy that players call him down with 9-high!

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

You're off. He paid off half of that. 1 BB = $20 at 5/10.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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Strassa will bet T-high for value because he is so crazy that players call him down with 9-high!

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lololol

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

I dont play anything higher than NL50.

That being said...If you are raising a lot preflop, this guy could be re-popping you out of position with a marginal hand like TT JJ or AQ. I do this to LAGs to punish them for raising A9 and JQ.

Did you say "its probobly aces, but I'll call anyway....damnit, it was."?

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

whoa - when i flat call a pf reraise w KK i am doing it to bust someone up on low card flop like this. i raise flop. no? ok, then i raise turn. river eh, bad card.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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when i flat call a pf reraise w KK i am doing it to bust someone up

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Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

Tough hand to play.

If this guy will fire 3 barrels, call the turn and insta-call the river (no reason to raise turn).

If this guy will fire 2 barrels and shut down on the river, shove the turn and hope he makes a crying call with a lower PP.

When he bets the turn, if you're not looking to bust him with KK here then you should fold. Calling to hope he shuts down on the river is horrible. The only reason to smooth call is for him to put more money in on the river for you the times you are ahead. So if you think you are behind on the turn, then fold.

The queen is an irrelevant card, unless of course he has QQ! 99-JJ will still bet this river if the player is at all aggro. With all this said, I agree with Strassa that you are only beating a bluff/semi-bluff (99-JJ) here. What is this guy's reraising range? Use that information to make your turn decision. Tough hand to be so deep, but I probably call the river and use that info the times I lose to get the money back from him later. Curious to see what he had.

Re: KK hand. 4400 stacks 5-10 6-max..
 

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this thead is retarded.

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no kidding