50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Villian is a 2+2'er: BlackIce781.

I have him at 17.69/13.51/3.85 postflop agg. over 1340 hands.
I've 4bet him twice at this table in like the last 10 or 15 minutes.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($52.55)
UTG ($19.05)
MP ($154.35)
Button ($8.95)
Hero ($68.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, BB calls $2, UTG folds.


I check the flop cause...I believe his range here has to be almost only pocket pairs with maayybe some suited connectors. And I thought he'd fold a pocket pair if it didn't set up so I wanted to check call and go from there.

Flop: ($5.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4.



Since I played it this way I thought he could be betting the turn again with a weaker hand.


Turn: ($13.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.


Now I'm torn...?

River: ($33.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $36.05 (All-In)</font>, Hero ???

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I can't fold, your hand looks like its trying to get to showdown.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I probably check-raise the turn.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

The flop c/c is fine. But on the turn i much prefer a c/r because it's about time to find out where you really stand. The river is tricky because your passive play makes it looks like you can be bluffed off your hand so he could be and should be bluffing here quite a bit. But then if he's bluffing would he overbet the pot like this??

As played and assuming he's decent I think this is a marginal spot. Call if you don't mind the variance.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Def. tough spot on the river... seems pretty unlikely he could be vbetting worse. I guess it could be like 87 or something he decides is not good enough to showdown. He has to have air here like 25% of the time here to call... seems like a fold to me but I guess based on your history it could be a call. I think a turn c/r is good here- better if you cbet flop &amp; check turn. Not a real big fan of checking flop &amp; turn here.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I fold, I dont think ICE is shoving thin here, I think he is shoving for value----- it is very unlikely he triple barrel bluff's here, he probably checks behind with a worse hand on river.

fwiw I c/r flop or turn---- also i think slowplaying AA oop against regs is bad--- better against fish who will stack off lighter

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I think you can rule out KK/QQ or very small part of range at best. River looks like KQ or something but with so much weakness shown I think this could be a loose push. Need to push turn as played IMO. Either just a bluff, AK, KQ or set, maybe straight but unlikely. Don't know how to assign probability to the first two, with this much history you should have an idea unless these are just datamined stats.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

if u r gonna play ur hand like this u have to call the river shove. u have underepresented ur hand so much up to this point he can shove any thing (i have no idea who this guy is but an aggro person would b inclined to this with n e 2 in this spot.)

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I hate this line, but your hand looks like third pair here, so folding is out of the question now.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I don't mean to sound overly critical, so take this with that in mind:

This is the worst line you could've taken. If you're going to give a "known 2p2er" this kind of credit, fold preflop, seriously.

Put him on a range ffs, QQ is at most 25% of that range, raise the flop or secondly c/r him a serious amount.

By the time you get to the turn with your line, you have no idea where you are. You have him at almost 4 in af over a million hands or whatever, and he WILL two and three barrel you to death based on that one stat alone.

By the river, maybe he got there, you certainly have no idea because if he did get there, you gave him a free ride.

Sorry again, but it isn't personal.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

GtrHtr, that's fine. But if I bet or check/raise flop what do we expect to happen? I expect he folds everything except sets (I don't think AQ or the like is in his range). I took this line specifically because of the fact that he can 2 and 3 barrel me. I saw it as the only way to really get value from a worse hand than mine. You disagree I guess???


BTW what is "ffs".

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

CR flop to 12, if he pushes, fold.
ffs = for [censored]'s sake.

As played, fold river.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

ffs = for [censored]'s sake

bet the flop plz [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
CR flop to 12, if he pushes, fold.
ffs = for [censored]'s sake.

As played, fold river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

But about the hand that's exactly what I was trying to change. Instead of betting and folding to a raise or check raising and shoving to a fold I was trying to find a line that could get more value from a good regular TAG (whose range has gotta be nearly only pocket pairs) with AA on a dry board.

Your suggestion to check raise flop and then fold to a push is a suggestion to make my AA a bluff. You may as well tell me to do this with JTs.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your suggestion to check raise flop and then fold to a push is a suggestion to make my AA a bluff. You may as well tell me to do this with JTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If C/R this flop with AA turns it into a bluff, you need to be C/R this flop more often. Not as the PFR though.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Anyway, the answer to your dilemma is that if he's aggro enough to triple barrel unimproved pps here, or whatever you're trying to get him to do, he's also aggro enough to float and bluff/raise and so on and so forth. It's ridiculous to think he's always folding 33 unimproved to a cbet on this flop, but firing 2 barrels when checked to.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I think your getting a bit to tricky for 50nl. You really shouldn't be folding aces to often unless the action or board is real real ugly. He's not limping kk or qq pre probably not kq and 88 isn't all that likely, but really just lead flop first off. I can't think of a reason not to so the rest of it has me confused a bit but yeah sorry he had 44/55 but the way you played it you can't get away, and you really shouldn't be looking to much anyway. There are a lot more spots you should probably be looking to fix before you worry about folding aces on this board on the flop at 50nl.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

If villain is as tricky/optimal with bluff freq as you seem to think folding aces to him here is awful. I doubt he is triple barreling or w/e anywhere near as often as you imply.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Bump for morning.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

id bet or raise somewhere in this hand. We have played it so passively that we have absolutely no idea where we are stand. That doesnt mean im necessarly bettin for info (though that is a plus). But playin this so weak puts us in tough spots esp against aggro opponents. Stat wise this guy seems decent so If you think he is capable of sencing weakness or plays this aggro w/ TP hands then i call the river. TBH i dont what is best on the river tho cause i never take this flop/turn line.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I lead flop, turn, cc river, he isn't folding KQ or AQ, looks like he caught up to you on the river. Two C/C's gives you no information.

As played definitely check shove turn.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
GtrHtr, that's fine. But if I bet or check/raise flop what do we expect to happen? I expect he folds everything except sets (I don't think AQ or the like is in his range). I took this line specifically because of the fact that he can 2 and 3 barrel me. I saw it as the only way to really get value from a worse hand than mine. You disagree I guess???


BTW what is "ffs".

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you want to bet the flop is for value. In a rr'ed pot with a call pf, you will get a lot of value from AA oop by betting and getting worse hands to come along. Don't worry if they fold. If they fold to your flop bet or flop c/r then you got the most value out of your hand you were going to get.

So put him on a range, lets say he calls your 3 bet with TT+, AQs+. The only hand you are behind in that range is QQ on the flop. AQ will and AK may come along, AK thinking he still has 2 overs and AQ has flopped TPTK. TT is less likely but may call one street if you bet out, but fold to a c/r. JJ will likely still call but fold to a c/r. Both those hands you will get value only on the flop so betting or c/r doesn't really matter that much. QQ you're smoked, and KK will call or rr you the whole way if you lead or c/r.

Analyze all that info and determine your best line.

I'll leave the subject of slowplaying, which is what you did, to someone else but I will rarely slowplay at 100nl or 50nl simply because bad players will call with weaker hands all day long. This villain isn't a weak player on avg, but I wouldn't adjust my line regardless.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GtrHtr, that's fine. But if I bet or check/raise flop what do we expect to happen? I expect he folds everything except sets (I don't think AQ or the like is in his range). I took this line specifically because of the fact that he can 2 and 3 barrel me. I saw it as the only way to really get value from a worse hand than mine. You disagree I guess???


BTW what is "ffs".

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you want to bet the flop is for value. In a rr'ed pot with a call pf, you will get a lot of value from AA oop by betting and getting worse hands to come along. Don't worry if they fold. If they fold to your flop bet or flop c/r then you got the most value out of your hand you were going to get.

So put him on a range, lets say he calls your 3 bet with TT+, AQs+. The only hand you are behind in that range is QQ on the flop. AQ will and AK may come along, AK thinking he still has 2 overs and AQ has flopped TPTK. TT is less likely but may call one street if you bet out, but fold to a c/r. JJ will likely still call but fold to a c/r. Both those hands you will get value only on the flop so betting or c/r doesn't really matter that much. QQ you're smoked, and KK will call or rr you the whole way if you lead or c/r.

Analyze all that info and determine your best line.

I'll leave the subject of slowplaying, which is what you did, to someone else but I will rarely slowplay at 100nl or 50nl simply because bad players will call with weaker hands all day long. This villain isn't a weak player on avg, but I wouldn't adjust my line regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]


All of your analysis is off based on the fact that this is not a 3bet pot. I raised in the sb and he called in the bb. Your mistake here now clears up and makes sense of the fact that you thought it important to say that he only has QQ here like 25% of the time. Reread the hand please. He of course has QQ here 0% of the time.

I certainly would have bet in a 3bet pot.

Here however, instead of a range of like TT-AA,AK I feel he has a range more like 22-88 and if I bet he'll mostly fold the ones that didn't make a set and call or raise with the ones that did. (He may float me with some missed sets and then would most likely fold to a turn bet if the turn doesn't set him.)

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I lead flop, turn, cc river, he isn't folding KQ or AQ, looks like he caught up to you on the river. Two C/C's gives you no information.

As played definitely check shove turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't have KQ or AQ. I can be 98% sure that these hands are not in his pre-flop calling range.



I really feel like 90%+ of his range is 22-88 with most of the rest maybe being some suited connector or mayybe 99. Do people disagree with this or do they disagree with how I played the hand based upon that assumption?

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Bet flop, bet turn, check/call river. You've grossly underrepresented your hand up to this point, so I can't find the fold button. I think you are good &gt;= 33% of the time here.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Almost positive said villain has 44 or 55 here. Twice I've seen him take a very similar line w/ a set. He likes to overbet shove the river with these hands. Plus his turn line looks like he wants to build a big pot, something KQ/AQ probably isn't looking to do.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GtrHtr, that's fine. But if I bet or check/raise flop what do we expect to happen? I expect he folds everything except sets (I don't think AQ or the like is in his range). I took this line specifically because of the fact that he can 2 and 3 barrel me. I saw it as the only way to really get value from a worse hand than mine. You disagree I guess???


BTW what is "ffs".

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you want to bet the flop is for value. In a rr'ed pot with a call pf, you will get a lot of value from AA oop by betting and getting worse hands to come along. Don't worry if they fold. If they fold to your flop bet or flop c/r then you got the most value out of your hand you were going to get.

So put him on a range, lets say he calls your 3 bet with TT+, AQs+. The only hand you are behind in that range is QQ on the flop. AQ will and AK may come along, AK thinking he still has 2 overs and AQ has flopped TPTK. TT is less likely but may call one street if you bet out, but fold to a c/r. JJ will likely still call but fold to a c/r. Both those hands you will get value only on the flop so betting or c/r doesn't really matter that much. QQ you're smoked, and KK will call or rr you the whole way if you lead or c/r.

Analyze all that info and determine your best line.

I'll leave the subject of slowplaying, which is what you did, to someone else but I will rarely slowplay at 100nl or 50nl simply because bad players will call with weaker hands all day long. This villain isn't a weak player on avg, but I wouldn't adjust my line regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]


All of your analysis is off based on the fact that this is not a 3bet pot. I raised in the sb and he called in the bb. Your mistake here now clears up and makes sense of the fact that you thought it important to say that he only has QQ here like 25% of the time. Reread the hand please. He of course has QQ here 0% of the time.

I certainly would have bet in a 3bet pot.

Here however, instead of a range of like TT-AA,AK I feel he has a range more like 22-88 and if I bet he'll mostly fold the ones that didn't make a set and call or raise with the ones that did. (He may float me with some missed sets and then would most likely fold to a turn bet if the turn doesn't set him.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're absolutely correct. Thanks for the pm as well.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

IDK why you dont want to lead with your aggressive image. The way you have played the hand you have to call

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I think this a very reasonable line. Our goal is to maximize EV and against an aggressive opponet c/c three streets is the way to go and since the money went in by the river, there is absolutely no way a raise anywhere is needed. You bet and raise with AA to get the money in the middle, but the money went in anyway. I just don´t understand why people say raise when all the money went in.

Ok now what does he have? Much of your reasoning seems to be that he would play a hand with showdown value like 77 and try to bluff you off what looks to him like TT or something. I just don´t see that happening that often unless you have some serious history. Since you don´t think he can have top pair and overplay it I think it is a fairly trivial fold. I mean, if have seen him shove river just once as a bluff I think I could be swayed. I can see him take two stabs but the river is a fold.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I might repost this hand and try to be more clear and provide more info in the first post.

I really wanted to deal with his range and what he does with it after I act. I see people in here talking about AQ, KQ and he like never has those hands once pre-flop is over.


Then as for check raising flop and turn I think it's pretty bad. Let's see:

Flop: Ok the vast majority of his range is probably 22-88 (disagree with the assumption if you want but point that out and.) If I checkraise he calls or pushes with 444/555 and folds 22/33/66/77/88. So I just minimized wins and maximized losses. So I tried to play flop how I played it. Moving on:

Turn: Ok now if I checkraise he calls with 444/555/888 and folds 22/33/66/77. So again I minimized wins and maximized losses. So again I tried it how I played it.

River: Now I just wasn't sure if he'd 3barrel especially by shoving with 22/33/66/77 or if it had to be 444/555/888 at this point.


If you are going to talk to me talk to me in terms of his range (And state what you are assuming it to be or else it's pointless) and how I can maximize my value against it. I'm going to try to never bet or raise for info. And betting or raising for info in this hand is particularly silly IMO because it completely turns my hand into a bluff and I don't like turning AA into a bluff.




Here's a convo I just had with my friend about this hand. He's mostly a tournament player, but he plays cash games sometimes. He does quite well: banked significantly over $100,000 last year and had a WCOOP final table. I think this is a real good discussion about this hand:



FRIEND (5:09:30 PM): hmm
FRIEND (5:09:44 PM): is flop check standard?
ME (5:09:51 PM): no
ME (5:10:09 PM): what range of hands would u figure for him after he calls pre-flop though
ME (5:10:23 PM): btw in the last 10 of 15 min. at this table i had 4bet him twice
ME (5:10:32 PM): pre-flop 4 bet i mean
FRIEND (5:11:00 PM): well do those numbers mean, is he loose or tight pre?
FRIEND (5:11:28 PM): i guess a lot of pocket pairs
Mambreno (5:11:28 PM): well here he puts money in the pot 17.5% of the time. 13.5% of the time he does it by raising
FRIEND (5:12:08 PM): do u think he is calling AQ/KQ out of BB?
ME (5:12:21 PM): no
ME(5:12:47 PM): i put the vast majority of his range to be something like 22-88
FRIEND (5:12:53 PM): yeah
FRIEND (5:13:06 PM): u think he is ever calling suited connectors?
FRIEND (5:13:46 PM): could 67 be in his range?
ME(5:16:03 PM): possible; i think nearly all of his range is 22-88, with perhaps some suited connectors, and maayyybe 99, I've 4bet him twice so maybe give like a .1% chance to something like AQ but I doubt that

He's a good player so it's like gotta be pairs and maybe connectors and i'm raising from the sb so he's gotta know i almost definitely have something but connectors need to have a higher return and i' not entirely sure what he'd do with a connector but i think it's significantly less likely he'd call witht that than with a pair
FRIEND (5:16:44 PM): gotcha
FRIEND (5:16:59 PM): do u ever slowplay QQ on this board?
FRIEND (5:17:25 PM): im just havin trouble putting him on anything other than a set
FRIEND (5:17:42 PM): and ur hand looks a lot like what it is
ME (5:18:21 PM): ah i might check QQ once on either flop or turn but that's probably it
FRIEND (5:18:36 PM): yeah
FRIEND (5:18:47 PM): i dont see how he puts u on anything put AA
FRIEND (5:18:56 PM): do u think he expects you to fold AA on the river
ME (5:19:40 PM): i think its very rare at 50nl for someone to try to get another person off an overpair even when both players in question are pretty good and both know it
ME (5:19:50 PM): especially on a dry board like this
FRIEND (5:20:01 PM): yeah thats what i think too
Auto response from Mambreno (5:20:01 PM): I am away from my computer right now.

ME (5:20:28 PM): u don't think my hand could like like AQ/JJ?
FRIEND (5:20:42 PM): AQ maybe
FRIEND (5:20:53 PM): i dont think u check call two streets with JJ
FRIEND(5:21:48 PM): i think i fold
FRIEND(5:22:02 PM): there arent many semibluffing hands he could have
FRIEND (5:22:15 PM): i think its either a set or air
Mambreno (5:22:25 PM): what do u think about the line i took in general?
FRIEND (5:22:36 PM): i think the whole hand plays easier if u bet flop
ME (5:22:47 PM): yea it def. plays easier
rementcnj (5:22:54 PM): especially since ur prob cbetting a lot of hands that missed
ME (5:23:24 PM): it def. plays easier but do u think betting the flop is better value wise
FRIEND (5:25:47 PM): hmm
FRIEND (5:26:09 PM): maybe not
FRIEND (5:26:15 PM): i guess flop check is ok
FRIEND (5:26:21 PM): such a dry board
FRIEND (5:26:47 PM): and not many hands can call a flop bet from u
FRIEND (5:26:55 PM): that u beat that is
FRIEND (5:27:00 PM): maybe AQ
FRIEND (5:27:09 PM): everything else will prob just fold
ME (5:27:31 PM): thatwas my thinking
ME (5:28:42 PM): it's the same on the turn IMO though
FRIEND (5:29:07 PM): yeah
FRIEND (5:29:28 PM): yeah i think u played it fine
FRIEND (5:29:38 PM): river is a fold imo
FRIEND (5:29:53 PM): ur whole line looks like AA trying to induce bluff/pot control
ME (5:29:54 PM): yea i wasn't sure if he'd 3barrel especially with a shoce without a set
FRIEND (5:30:01 PM): and i dont think he expects u to fold AA on river
ME (5:30:02 PM): *shove
FRIEND (5:30:30 PM): yeah without too much of a history i dont think he is 3 barrelling often enough to call
ME (5:30:41 PM): ok, thanks

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

If you've already 4bet him a few times at the table, it's definitely possible he could be tightening up his 3bet range against you and call with a lot of the hands that he would normally 3bet with.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Just bet the flop. Tons of hands will float.

As played, I don' think he 3-balls anything you beat...but it's possible he has a PP and is trying to get you off a Q because you've played it so passively. mehhhhhh

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you've already 4bet him a few times at the table, it's definitely possible he could be tightening up his 3bet range against you and call with a lot of the hands that he would normally 3bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thought. I thought of that also...but I didn't give it much credit as I don't really believe he would do that after being 4 bet twice. IMO if anything he'd probably be more likely to get all-in pre-flop with AQ+,JJ+, maybe TT rather than just call me and then see a flop OOP.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

i think your friend is wrong when he says that "everything else will just fold" on the flop. i think you will get floated here alot given that your villain has position and your history. it just looks like youre cbetting

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think your friend is wrong when he says that "everything else will just fold" on the flop. i think you will get floated here alot given that your villain has position and your history. it just looks like youre cbetting

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Then if I bet turn he would fold though.

I guess it could be played bet flop. Check call turn. Then what on the river? Check call again? Bet fold? Off the top of my head I don't think I'd be deep enough for bet/fold....so check call. He's probably most of the time checking behind with anything I beat though, right? So maybe hero should bet........

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

The two points that mostly stand out to me about this hand are that,

1) I don't really know this villain in particular, but I do know that a 17/13 can definitely show up with more hands than just 22-88 here, especially with 4-betting history. He has position. He can have SCs, he can have TT-JJ some % of the time, and I would be surprised if he absolutely never has AQ.

2) Whatever his range is, and I think it's a lot wider than you say, it is silly to think that he folds everything to a standard cbet on that dry flop, or even to a 2nd barrel (since you probably fire a 2nd barrel on a board like that with some frequency). It is silly because your line is based on giving him credit for firing at least 2 barrels when checked to. But if he's aggro enough to do that, he's not just folding everything when you start betting.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

vs good tag I probably fold on river. he has to put you on a hand also and you can esily have a very strong hand here des[ite taking a weak line.

Dont see him bettign all thre streets with a hand taht you beat on river

i cbet this flop nearly 100% with aces or sevens or ace jack

problem is ee witht his hand is that when you dont cbet this flop you sort of turn your hand face up. Unless you dont cbet this flop with a lot of other hands here

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

lego, PM me if you want to talk.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

I've played with blackice numerous times and i can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE he has a set here... easy fold.

Re: 50NL; AA vs. known 2+2\'er
 

Blind vs. blind here, you could be stealing and would cbet even if you missed right? You're range is really wide here and he knows it. I think he calls a lot more than you've given him credit for because of this.