Yet another NYC raid
 

Seems they're really out to shut it down.

West side place, surrounded by cops.

Looks like no one got arrested, they came in and told everyone to leave.

If its anything like last Wednesday, I'd avoid the rooms tonight.


I really think we should all to talk to our law makers and try to end this stuff. Its ridiculous that a game broadcasted on ESPN in prime time, not to mention NBC and other networks is illegal! The cops need to spend their time on real crime, not card games.

Be safe.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Looks like no one got arrested, they came in and told everyone to leave.

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There were arrests.

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that was not a raid, those are players dressed as police officers from their gig

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Is it an election year in NYC?

Im sure the asian massage parlors and other thinly veiled places of prostitution are also getting busted.

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I was there when it happened. They were def cops and knew the drill. Most got out, a few were held. All players were told to leave their chips on the table and then they were escorted out, no ID checks, just told to leave. The place was padlocked. It does seem hard to imagine it re-opening though (i hope they do as I still have my tournament seat in my pocket and left 300 on the table). I was on the east side and they also got hit with the west side last wednesday. crackdown?

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Is it an election year in NYC?

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no

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Im sure the asian massage parlors and other thinly veiled places of prostitution are also getting busted.

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no

The police don't need a reason when something is illegal.

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well if the 1st question is a no, then my 2nd point is moot. I was just saying that the morality crimes tend to be enforced at a higher rate during election years.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

These get enforced regardless. The whole politics argument is starting to get a little old, rehearsed, and boring. Police bust places like these because it's their job to do so. I've said this before, poker players seem to think that their places shouldn't get busted for the simple fact that to them, poker activities are moral and therefore shouldn't be a crime. Newsflash - this is the same line of thinking about 90% of criminals employ. Clubs are illegal by nature and thus subject to prosecution, regardless of how many "woe is me, AC is so far away" complaints get uttered.

This is coming from someone who was actually on the B+M side of the fence for awhile, having been charged myself in connection with a busted club, and having dealt/played nightly at two others which I left prior to police showing up and suggesting that they close.

Prevalence of rooms overall is decreasing by the day, for many reasons unrelated to busts. Within a couple of years I'd imagine few if any will be left. For now, the raids continue.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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poker players seem to think that their places shouldn't get busted for the simple fact that to them, poker activities are moral and therefore shouldn't be a crime. Newsflash - this is the same line of thinking about 90% of criminals employ.

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No. Something that has no victims to me is not a crime. I know clubs are illegal but there is only so much police power in the city. The police have to be delegated to certain geographic locations and can only cover so much ground in a night. Why bust up a card game when there is more serious crime occurring?

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

Exactly what I'm talking about. This is the same disjointed logic used by drug addicts, tax evaders, guys who crack up g/f's who cheat on them, and whomever else feels that "their" crime is the one that is victimless. Please know that I am not equating any of the above to poker, clearly these are more serious infractions. However, the law is the law, and it says you cannot have a poker room for the purpose of profit. Owners know the laws when they open these venues, and they know the risks/penalties involved. Open one, live with the consequences.

The commentary on not busting it up because more serious stuff is going on is absurd. Police don't have the right to simply ignore crimes as they please. Many of these clubs are flaunting their existence - emails, business cards, cars parked suspiciously at all hours of the night, etc etc. Police do not exist for the purpose of going out and deciding that XYZ crime isn't serious, so they will ignore it. Do you suggest that they simply let it go on? Doesn't speak much for their credibility, does it?

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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poker players seem to think that their places shouldn't get busted for the simple fact that to them, poker activities are moral and therefore shouldn't be a crime. Newsflash - this is the same line of thinking about 90% of criminals employ.

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No. Something that has no victims to me is not a crime. I know clubs are illegal but there is only so much police power in the city. The police have to be delegated to certain geographic locations and can only cover so much ground in a night. Why bust up a card game when there is more serious crime occurring?

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I don't mean to be rude, but your post comes across as naive. Its not like they are off looking to bust up card games every night, they are looking to bust up illegal businesses which is something the police department does every day in many sectors. Its their job, even the owners of these underground rooms understand and respect this.

If you want to change things you have to start by changing the state constitution, but the argument that illegal clubs have the right to operate is very thin in the eyes of a congressman so don't expect miracles.

In the eyes of the law there doesn't need to be a victim to be a crime.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

To further what TT said (good post), they sure as hell aren't very tough when it comes to cracking down on this. The actual raids might be, but in terms of time, plenty of clubs get well over a year before anything happens, and raids aren't all that frequent. I know of places that are approaching two years, and we were running for about 11 months at the venue I was involved in that got busted.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

I don't think underground rooms have a "right" to operate. They're illegal I get it.

And cops are just out doing their job and if they see illegal activity they stop it. Again, I get it.

However, cops, legislators, etc have something called "discretion." They make choices based on priorities. This happens all the time. This why these raids or crackdowns happen in waves. Right now they are making it a priority to raid underground rooms. That is their choice, and it is one they are empowered to make. What I wish is that they used more discretion and took on crimes that are more severe than playing cards.

At most, dealing running a room results in a misdemeanor. When a room is raided, overtime dollars are spent, resources are allocated and as a result taken away from other areas of the city. And for what? To take a couple of dealers to jail for a few hours? We could use these resources in better ways...

I know poker in NY is illegal. I wish it wasn't but that is a choice the legislature has made. The executive branch (cops, mayor, etc) does have the ability to use discretion. I wish in this case they would.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

is this the same west side club as last week?

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Here's my question-

am I to assume that if youre playing during a raid youre screwed as to the amount of money you have bought in for or have won? I kinda doubt the cops would let you cash in before leaving...

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Right now they are making it a priority to raid underground rooms.

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no they aren't. None of the room operators I know believes that. Little known fact, Mayor Bloomberg is an avid poker player, he hosts an executive game on his boat in the Caribbean. So are countless cops, judges, etc. In fact I used to regularly play in an underground game that included a NYS Supreme Court judge, a producer for HBO who gave me secrets about upcoming Sunday night shows, and a drunken Irish pub operator who came to burn money. There is no great conspiracy, in fact if anything the anti-gambling people are pissed off that the cops look the other way for so long; they think there is a conspiracy to keep these rooms open!. Time to take the tinfoil hat off, lol.

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At most, dealing running a room results in a misdemeanor.

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Ever heard of organized crime? I have friends who have 6 month sentences going through the court system right now for operating and/or dealing, if the feds get involved they could use RICCO statutes (improperly of course but it could stick) and put these people away for a long time. Why do you think we have the policy that we have on 2+2? Its to help keep the players in NYC from hurting themselves.


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Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

There is no discretionary element here. Places either get shut down or they dont. If police decide to not enforce the laws, they are letting crime occur in their midst with no action. It's either this, or shutting them down. These things only seem to happen in waves because it takes time to build cases and because it's easier to bang out 2 or 3 in one night.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Police don't have the right to simply ignore crimes as they please.

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I think this a common misconception, and, really, at the heart of what is wrong with the role of police in society. Laws are hard and fast if applied, but when and how often they are is another matter altogether, especially for relatively minor offenses. How many times have we all passed a radar trap travelling in slight excess of the speed limit, only to have the cop ignore us and wait for a 'bigger' offender? Many. The same principle applies at a higher level when the sergeant/commisioner/mayor/whoever motivates those under him to target specific crimes above others. The reasons can range from politics to need for greater ticket revenue to seeming personal whim. Giuliani's crackdown on jaywalking, anyone? Waaay OT, but just my 2c.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

You make a decent point and this is something I thought of previously, but these are not offenses which carry potential jail times or have long term effects.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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You make a decent point and this is something I thought of previously, but these are not offenses which carry potential jail times or have long term effects.

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you work in NJ rooms. Do you know the guys at the soccer club? They did time, it my my boy Jose miserable (which if you know Jose is hard to believe, he is always happy). My friend has a case in the NYC system now, his outlook isn't good, they are hoping for a shorter term penalty but its likely he will see the inside of a cell for a bit.

whatever you do, don't downplay the facts - working in these rooms are a great risk, far greater than playing.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

Please reread. The above cut and paste actually has less than zero to do with poker rooms. It is in reponse to the person above me talking about jaywalking and speeding. I have posted about such risks two or three dozen times recently, so clearly I am aware and not going to downplay risks of working.

Jose's name has been thrown around quite a bit. I don't know him personally. This was about a year and change before I became involved over there. Nobody involved with me did jail time or anything close to it, albeit one person is still on the lam.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

Why not take this opportunity and instead of complaining about the raids, work with your state representives to create a bill to change your states contitution to allow for card rooms, and have it put on the next ballot?

I'm sure there are enough poker players in NY that would be more than willing to sign a petition to have such a law/change to the NY Constitution put onto the ballot, that would allow for card rooms in NY (like they are in California).

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

Jose is in fact a very decent guy. Very amiable, but lending $$$$ and other business practices exercised at the soccer club are what caused him to do time.

one thiing i'll always remember about Jose is that he'd never turn his back on anyone who worked with/for him. unfortunately, that ended up hurting him legally from what i heard.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Why not take this opportunity and instead of complaining about the raids, work with your state representives to create a bill to change your states contitution to allow for card rooms, and have it put on the next ballot?

I'm sure there are enough poker players in NY that would be more than willing to sign a petition to have such a law/change to the NY Constitution put onto the ballot, that would allow for card rooms in NY (like they are in California).

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everybody sing with me... Daydream Believer....

The state is lobbying to get casinos on reservations and that didn't work out too good, that is a much bigger priority for them than Poker is especially since the Governor was part of the poker crackdown when he was the most powerful AG in the nation.

bad news, it wont happen. California was a fluke due to the court system, it wasn't legislated, and since that time California has adjusted their laws to keep new rooms from oepning.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Jose is in fact a very decent guy. Very amiable, but lending $$$$ and other business practices exercised at the soccer club are what caused him to do time.

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thats what caused him to do longer time, his partners were in the clink too. Jose's problem was with his other businesses in addition to the Soccor Club which just compounded the problems - NJ is one of the toughest in the nation when it comes to illegal gambling.

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Why not take this opportunity and instead of complaining about the raids, work with your state representives to create a bill to change your states contitution to allow for card rooms, and have it put on the next ballot?

I'm sure there are enough poker players in NY that would be more than willing to sign a petition to have such a law/change to the NY Constitution put onto the ballot, that would allow for card rooms in NY (like they are in California).

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here we go again...

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

Petition idea is a noble one, but will never pan out. You simply will be met with too much resistance no matter how many people you proceed ahead with.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Why not take this opportunity and instead of complaining about the raids, work with your state representives to create a bill to change your states contitution to allow for card rooms, and have it put on the next ballot?

I'm sure there are enough poker players in NY that would be more than willing to sign a petition to have such a law/change to the NY Constitution put onto the ballot, that would allow for card rooms in NY (like they are in California).

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everybody sing with me... Daydream Believer....

The state is lobbying to get casinos on reservations and that didn't work out too good, that is a much bigger priority for them than Poker is especially since the Governor was part of the poker crackdown when he was the most powerful AG in the nation.

bad news, it wont happen. California was a fluke due to the court system, it wasn't legislated, and since that time California has adjusted their laws to keep new rooms from oepning.

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Well, as for me, I don't live in NY, but all I was trying to say, was that instead of complaining about how the law is, why not try to work as a group to get the existing laws changed?

I don't know of any state in the union, where a citizen can NOT work to get a proposed law put onto the books by way of ballot.

Many people simply work with someone who knows how to write law (IE: Their State Rep), then go out and get enough signatures of registered voters, to put the proposed law on the ballot.

If enough people in that state then want for it to happen, they will vote for the law to pass, and it will become the (new) Law.

With poker as popular is it is today, I'm really surprised more people don't use this approach to get Card Rooms leagalized in their state.

Many people view poker differently these days, than they do Casino Gambling. Where as a law allowing for Casinos might not be voted in, one that would allow for Card rooms just might.

BTW ... I love the song Daydream believer! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I might also point out that ... If not for many 'Daydream believers' putting action to their 'daydreams', we wouldn't even have this wonderful country called the United States of America.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

It's actually possible that, eventually, people would have LESS interest in underground clubs if they were legalized. For less serious, less experienced players, there's somewhat of a romantic, intriguing element about going to a "private" game where you "have to know Johnny Balls" to get in. I imagine players who aren't B+M grinders get some sense of excitement out of this, particularly younger players.

Also, you would have to take into consideration that if legalized, initially cardroom would be on every block in populated areas. Eventually, many of them would have to shutter up and close due to too much competition and lack of players. They'd eat into each other. A number of cardrooms now can only sustain existence because they're the only game in the area.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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am I to assume that if youre playing during a raid youre screwed as to the amount of money you have bought in for or have won? I kinda doubt the cops would let you cash in before leaving...

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In theory, Yes, you can be screwed in this situation. In practice though, the individuals who run a club generally hope to re-open in a new location in short order, in the hopes of retaining their customer base and returning to "business as usual". The only way to do that is to have the house go and make restitution.

Notice how most NYC clubs nowadays rake an extra dollar or two per pot, for "bad beat jackpots", Sunday freerolls and the like. Hint: Most of that money is not making it into the jackpot or prize pool. It's basically a way for the house to insure itself against being raided, losing their cash on hand, and still needing to make good with the players.

*****************this discloses too much, sorry.**********************************

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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I don't know of any state in the union, where a citizen can NOT work to get a proposed law put onto the books by way of ballot.

Many people simply work with someone who knows how to write law (IE: Their State Rep), then go out and get enough signatures of registered voters, to put the proposed law on the ballot.

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I think that the initiative process is only available in 24 states, mostly in the West.

List with requiremets (pdf)

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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Also, you would have to take into consideration that if legalized, initially cardroom would be on every block in populated areas. Eventually, many of them would have to shutter up and close due to too much competition and lack of players. They'd eat into each other. A number of cardrooms now can only sustain existence because they're the only game in the area.

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why does this matter? there will be competition and the best cardrooms will survive. Whats the problem?

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Many people view poker differently these days, than they do Casino Gambling. Where as a law allowing for Casinos might not

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Problem is the law doesnt need to be changed, the state constitution does. Thats a much bigger fish to fry, and there isnt the backing required. And oddly the people who run cards rooms in NYC don't want the added attention or the state to pass such a law.

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Many people view poker differently these days, than they do Casino Gambling. Where as a law allowing for Casinos might not

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Problem is the law doesnt need to be changed, the state constitution does. Thats a much bigger fish to fry, and there isnt the backing required. And oddly the people who run cards rooms in NYC don't want the added attention or the state to pass such a law.

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TT, wouldn't that (petition process) also apply in getting the states constitution changed? I mean isn't that what a lot of the 'Christian Right' did in many states, when it came to defining marriage as something between one woman and one man (FWIW, I think that Marriage as it pertains to cival law is a civil law contract between the concenting adult parties involved, and should be no one elses business but their own). This also as well as for the 'Left' in other states, where they changed some states constitutions so to allow for gay partnerships to be recognized (IE: Colorado where I live is one such state where I read before I moved here, they did this for insurance purposes).

I also remember when I lived in Ohio, this being done as well, where the Ohio state constitution was changed due to a petition drive being put on the ballot.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

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However, the law is the law, and it says you cannot have a poker room for the purpose of profit.

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I'm not feeling these arguments here. The world we live in is not black and white and always clear cut. Sometimes what is considered morally acceptable by a society changes, sometimes it changes before the written law changes. Usually then law enforcement is lax or chooses to 'look the other way' because believe it or not, the laws and its enforcement is there to benefit us as a people. There are plenty of cases where the law is not strictly enforced, if you possess less than 5 grams of marijuana in Alaska or Berlin Germany it is understood that you will not be arrested even though it is against the law. The jaywalking example in NYC several years ago is another one. The anti-sodomy laws that exist in several states still might be another one.

So when the clubs get shut down there are many players who feel like the law enforcement is breaking some of the unwritten understood rules we've agreed to, namely that poker isn't that bad and that the cops should look the other way.

I'm sympathetic. Doesn't seem like there is much else to do besides complain about it.

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wouldn't that (petition process)

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stop there. there is no petition process in New York State to put a proposition/legislation/etc. on the ballot.

For reasons unrelated to poker, I am very glad about that.

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Usually then law enforcement is lax or chooses to 'look the other way' because believe it or not, the laws and its enforcement is there to benefit us as a people.

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Indee. At times, this has been the case with poker in NYC. However, after the armed robbery in June of a "major" underground room, there was political pressure on the police to stop looking the other way (which they apparently did despite their knowledge of the location of these rooms prior to the robbery). I am not sure there was a direct cause-and-effect here, but it certainly seemed that way.

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OT for sure - but anecdotally funny - I was one of the first people to get a jaywalking ticket when Guliani instituted that stupid law. I was like..."no way this is really happening...I must be asleep". It cost me $50.

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Clubs are illegal by nature

They are not illegal "by nature", they are illegal because at sometime in the past a law was passed that defined them as illegal.

I think you meant to say, "Clubs are illegal *by definition*." Huge difference.

Re: Yet another NYC raid
 

In the eyes of the law there doesn't need to be a victim to be a crime

While this statement represents the reality of the situation, the concept behind the statement (I'm not saying TT agrees with the concept) is idiotic and needs to be eradicated from a free society.