NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

So, what do u guys think about this, villain is Kruchevseh and is running at 19.5/16.5/2.2/350hands

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Lemayr (SB): $906.65
BB: $120.00
UTG: $1,202.13
CO: $922.85
BTN: $592.05

Preflop: Lemayr is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $22.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $22.00, Lemayr calls $19.00, BB folds

Flop: ($72) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Lemayr checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $55.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">Lemayr raises to $195.00</font>, UTG calls $140.00

Turn: ($462) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Lemayr checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $355.00</font>, Lemayr calls $355.00

River: ($1172) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Lemayr bets all-in for $334.65</font>, UTG folds

Pot Size: $1,506.65

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

your line is OK

lots of good ways to play this

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

why on earth would you not shove the turn

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

raise turn with just $334 left.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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why on earth would you not shove the turn

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Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

Yeah just shove the turn here. I also don't think this is a sick spot at all. He never has a set here after he calls the flop and we're only really worried about AJ, and he could pretty easily have QJ/TJ/KJ etc, or have an overpair or a draw he pretty much committed himself with.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

Well, first, what is he calling with that I beat?? second, my flush draw could prolly be not good anymore since the board paired...what would u guys put villain on?what hands?

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

Would a call be that bad with a set? if u were villain, do u think I would be making a big c/r like I did on a draw? Flat call with set to disguise and welcome a new bet on turn is out of question?

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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Well, first, what is he calling with that I beat?? second, my flush draw could prolly be not good anymore since the board paired...what would u guys put villain on?what hands?

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But if your going to just open shove the river, than why would you not just stick it in the turn? I don't get it.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

c/c seems better to me but this is fine

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

Pf is wtf. You want to be out of position with a semi-marginal hand or draw in a raised pot to an UTG raiser who is 19/16?

Flop is pretty horrible. So you want to fold out weaker draws and weaker top pairs hands, and all weaker hands in general, while getting all hands that are ahead of you only to stay in (cuz they ain't folding)?

Lead turn also.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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Well, first, what is he calling with that I beat?? second, my flush draw could prolly be not good anymore since the board paired...what would u guys put villain on?what hands?

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But if your going to just open shove the river, than why would you not just stick it in the turn? I don't get it.

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Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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Pf is wtf. You want to be out of position with a semi-marginal hand or draw in a raised pot to an UTG raiser who is 19/16?

Flop is pretty horrible. So you want to fold out weaker draws and weaker top pairs hands, and all weaker hands in general, while getting all hands that are ahead of you only to stay in (cuz they ain't folding)?

Lead turn also.

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lol

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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Well, first, what is he calling with that I beat?? second, my flush draw could prolly be not good anymore since the board paired...what would u guys put villain on?what hands?

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But if your going to just open shove the river, than why would you not just stick it in the turn? I don't get it.

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cause this way you get to let the nut flush draw draw for free but still save his last 300 if he misses.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

No, cuz on turn I was losing to 55's 99's and AJ, on river only to quad 55's.
Jackall, so u just let go KJs against 2 ooponents 1 of them being 200bb deep and who is agressive enough to be raising something like JTS,QJs, 45s etc. all the time because being oop is the worst curse ever? And "considering" u had called with this crap being omg oop, what would u have done?

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

Fold preflop,

bet/call or crai turn.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

aislephive said:
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Pf is wtf. You want to be out of position with a semi-marginal hand or draw in a raised pot to an UTG raiser who is 19/16?

Flop is pretty horrible. So you want to fold out weaker draws and weaker top pairs hands, and all weaker hands in general, while getting all hands that are ahead of you only to stay in (cuz they ain't folding)?

Lead turn also.

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lol

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Enlighten me

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

he's right, pf call is not good

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

Preflop call is debatable, perhaps. Definitely not bad at all however. Against a typical 19/16 player's utg range KJs is behind, but not by much. This is a pretty standard preflop call for me. KJs can flop a bunch of excellent nut / near nut draws as well as hitting TPGK on the flop often.

Saying that the flop checkraise is horrible is stupid. All worse hands and draws definitely don't always fold, that's ridiculous. Especially because both OP and villain are very aggressive and are capable of getting it in very light. TPGK and the 2nd nut flush draw are probably crushing villain's calling range, believe it or not.

All in all, preflop and flop are not bad at all.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

No one i mentioning leading flop og 3betting a raise, because of stacksizes?

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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Preflop call is debatable, perhaps. Definitely not bad at all however. Against a typical 19/16 player's utg range KJs is behind, but not by much. This is a pretty standard preflop call for me. KJs can flop a bunch of excellent nut / near nut draws as well as hitting TPGK on the flop often.

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We hit a draw 20% of the time. If we don't get him to lay down his hand on the flop, we are oop and in a tough spot on the turn a lot here.

The other 80% of the time, we still don't have a hand good enough for a big pot here, so we are using this hand as a bluff catcher - out of position. I see this basically the same as JQ in that case.

If you are good enough to play this hand profitably OOP against this guys range, then kudos to ya.

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Saying that the flop checkraise is horrible is stupid. All worse hands and draws definitely don't always fold, that's ridiculous. Especially because both OP and villain are very aggressive and are capable of getting it in very light. TPGK and the 2nd nut flush draw are probably crushing villain's calling range, believe it or not.

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Yeah, true that all draws don't always fold, but they are far more likely with a large check/raise than if he led. Similarly with TT. c/r'ing is good when you want FE or when you have a monster. I wouldn't call this a monster, and why on earth do we want FE?

TPGK and 2nd nut flush draw might be crushing his range before a c/r. After it, against this opponent, it's a flip at best. If we led, we could get a call from lower draws and weaker hands like TT or a weaker J.

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All in all, preflop and flop are not bad at all.

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I disagree. Flop play is far worse than leading. I would even call it borderline awful.

Pf is marginal at best. Check your PT database. I am curious if you have 50k+ sample at a single limit - how do you do with KJs calling a pf raise from SB?

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

We hit a pair with a good kicker roughly a third of the time, flop a good draw a fifth of the time, we can bluff / semibluff c/r certain flops, especially if villain cbets into two players a lot and doesn't stick around with much of his range to a raise.

I wouldn't recommend everybody calling preflop. If you're unsure how to play the hand postflop without the initiative and are uncomfortable with marginal spots then you should just fold this.

The flop raise is for value and it's a semibluff. We get value from some worse hands, we also give villain a chance to 3bet all in with a draw or an overplayed overpair that we're ahead of. I check/raise a lot of flops, and I would certainly do it with a hand this strong a lot of the time. Leading is good too, don't get me wrong. It's probably a better line to take than c/r in a vaccum. But still, it's NOT terrible at all. In fact, in general, the difference in EV of different lines for value in NL is rarely that big, and this is certainly no exception.

Re: NL600 PP--->sick spot
 

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The flop raise is for value and it's a semibluff. We get value from some worse hands

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We would have more weaker hands if we lead then if we c/r imo

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I check/raise a lot of flops

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This might be the difference. If you do it a lot, then they are prob more likely to get it in here with a bigger range in that case.