There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

I had a really bizarre player/floorcall to deal with last night. I get called over to the table and before I ask the dealer what happened a player starts yellings "I called and he killed it, that's a split pot." I shut him up and find out what happened. There is a new dealer in the box that is bad at telling me what happned but I determine that one player went all-in and the the next player tossed his cards forward face up. Now the bettor tables his cards face up. The dealer pulls the two hands in face up and mixes them with the flop (this is on the flop). He starts to push the chips to the bettor and the other player starts yelling he called. Since everyone saw the cards and another player confirmed that he heard the player call, I return the players' cards to them as he yells that he has been playing for 5 years and knows the rules (if I was to look at his ID again I am pretty sure I would see he isn't old enough to have played for 5 years). Since the pot was mixed in with the all-in player's chips I broke down the pot by the blinds and what they bet preflop to determine the amount he owed. I tell him how much he owes and walks away form the table (important concept for new floormen out there, make a decision and then leave the area of the table). About 5 minutes later a player comes up to me and tells me the game is stopped. I go back to the table (remember that there is a brand new dealer there) and the table has stopped becasue the player refused to put in the chips he owes and the dealer doesn't know to call me back to the table. I explain to the player that he will either put the chips in the pot right now or be removed from the room by security. He stands up to argue so I put his 4700 in for him and walk away. He now asks that gaming be called.

An hour later or so gamin arrives. First he argues that since he called and the cards were "mucked" (his words) it's a split pot. Gaming explains they had seen the tape and the cards were clearly retrievable, so the hand gets to play. Next he argued that since the dealer didn't hear him say "call" that he didn't owe that last chips, that his hand should have counted as a fold. "Didn't you just tell me you were insisting you called?" "Yea, but nobody heard me so that doesn't count."

I think if I see him again I am going to 86 him.

edit to add: He had QQ against K4 on a K high flop, so his best possible result is to let the dealer push the pot, I am not sure what he was trying to do. The only thing I could think of is the place down the street that has a magic muck might make it a split pot if the dealer mucks the live hands.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

86 him

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

Question:

How does a dealer not know how to call the floor?

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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Question:

How does a dealer not know how to call the floor?

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I don't know, but this dealer is very weak.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

Wow. Sounds like a crazy situation. Was this part of a MTT?

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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Question:

How does a dealer not know how to call the floor?

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Lots of dealers try to solve these problems themselves. They don't like to admit they screwed up or don't want to bother the floor or they think they can handle it themselves.

Another question: Its ok if I call the floor when I see an argument breaking out even if I'm not in the hand, right?

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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Question:

How does a dealer not know how to call the floor?

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Lots of dealers try to solve these problems themselves. They don't like to admit they screwed up or don't want to bother the floor or they think they can handle it themselves.

Another question: Its ok if I call the floor when I see an argument breaking out even if I'm not in the hand, right?

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Yes. Ideally you should be able to get the dealer to do it, but some dealers don't speak English so a player has to call for the floor. In this case it was an inexperienced dealer that doesn't know how to yell "floor."

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

Tournament?

Did you get any heat from gaming for putting the player's chips in for him? (I'm guessing probably not as long as we are talking tournament.)

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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I tell him how much he owes and walks away form the table (important concept for new floormen out there, make a decision and then leave the area of the table).

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What is the reasoning behind this? Just curious...

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

When you say 86 him, do you mean ban him from the casino? If so, then yes, I don't want to come to your casino and play against a guy like this. He's a cheater.

You gotta think, if this guy had AA instead of QQ, would he be making the same arguements? Doubt it, because he's a cheater.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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I tell him how much he owes and walks away form the table (important concept for new floormen out there, make a decision and then leave the area of the table).

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What is the reasoning behind this? Just curious...

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If a player wants to argue about what was just decided he has to get up from the table and go to some other part of the room rather than disrupt the game. Also in general it takes a lot to get a poker player out of his seat so most likely they won't bother getting up to argue anymore.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

Fair enough, but I think the villain in this scenario exposed a flaw in this plan.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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Fair enough, but I think the villain in this scenario exposed a flaw in this plan.

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No plan is perfect. Making a decision and then walking away is usually a very effective strategy from my (dealer's perspective) experience.

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Fair enough, but I think the villain in this scenario exposed a flaw in this plan.

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Only because the dealer didn't open his mouth to get me back to the table. If I have to come back to the table someone will be leaving the casino. The only reason this guy didn't leave the casino when I returned to the table is the casino manager arrived to relay his complaint to gaming so that got him away form the table for a few minutes.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

On the other hand this can leave you rdealr in tough spot. You make the controversial decision and its the dealer who has to listen to the whining.

Sometimes this isn't a problem, but when you have a player who will now be intent on trying to start a fight, its the dealer you've hung out to dry. Sometimes its not enough to rule and walk away sometimes a floor needs to keep a close eye on that game after he makes his ruling.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

What does this say about the hiring of dealers at your casino? Or any casino for that matter?

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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What does this say about the hiring of dealers at your casino? Or any casino for that matter?

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I am not happy with some of our hires. We have a lot of tournaments so our options are to limit the size of the fields or hire the best available dealers out of school.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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What does this say about the hiring of dealers at your casino? Or any casino for that matter?

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I am not happy with some of our hires. We have a lot of tournaments so our options are to limit the size of the fields or hire the best available dealers out of school.

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Have you ever thought about asking some of your lower limit clientel if they would like to deal? I'm sure there would be a few people that would gladly do that as opposed to their $10 an hour jobs at kinko's. Plus they already know the general rules of the game so you don't have to stick someone who has no clue about the rules and nuances of poker in a game. Seems like this would keep everyone happier because I know the most annoying thing to me at a poker table (in respect to a dealer, players another story) is a dealer that doesn't control the game.

What casino do you work at?

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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Have you ever thought about asking some of your lower limit clientel if they would like to be something other than a paying customer?

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Have you ever thought about asking some of your lower limit clientel if they would like to be something other than a paying customer?

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Who's going to keep players at a table longer? A dealer who knows what they are doing and running the game efficiently? or a dealer who doesn't know anything about the game?

The extra $10 in rake from that one player who becomes a dealer is worth so much to the casino that they wouldn't want to lose them? Come on now. A happy and controlled table generates more rake for a casino than a table that is constantly being delayed because of a crappy dealer.

Last time I checked, most poker dealers still play poker in their off hours.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

I can assure you that you are mistaken in your belief that the typical low limit player knows the rules and is capable of running a game.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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I can assure you that you are mistaken in your belief that the typical low limit player knows the rules and is capable of running a game.

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They know the rules better than some old asian lady that doesn't speak english.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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I can assure you that you are mistaken in your belief that the typical low limit player knows the rules and is capable of running a game.

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They know the rules better than some old asian lady that doesn't speak english.

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I don't want to start a dealer-bashing thread, but I think you're under-estimating what a dealer needs to be able to do.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

Oh, cripes, I can only imagine the headaches from multiple directions if we brought our low level players in to deal tournaments.

Most people on these forums know more about rules and procedures and etiquette than the mid-stakes players in my room. Not saying the dealers are any better, but just because you do something all day doesn't mean you're any good at it. Isn't the point of small stakes that your opponents have no idea about poker?

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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I can assure you that you are mistaken in your belief that the typical low limit player knows the rules and is capable of running a game.

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They know the rules better than some old asian lady that doesn't speak english.

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I don't want to start a dealer-bashing thread, but I think you're under-estimating what a dealer needs to be able to do.

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I guarantee you I could spend 3 hours with RR and be noticeably better than any of the bad dealers that are mentioned in this thread. As would 80% of this forum. However, the overall intelligence of this forum is slightly above average... slightly.

Re: There is an angle or two in here somewhere
 

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I can assure you that you are mistaken in your belief that the typical low limit player knows the rules and is capable of running a game.

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They know the rules better than some old asian lady that doesn't speak english.

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I don't want to start a dealer-bashing thread, but I think you're under-estimating what a dealer needs to be able to do.

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I guarantee you I could spend 3 hours with RR and be noticeably better than any of the bad dealers that are mentioned in this thread. As would 80% of this forum. However, the overall intelligence of this forum is slightly above average... slightly.

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Also there needs to be a lot of time spent learning how to pitch etc. The bad dealers in my room still are pretty good compared to dealers at say Foxwoods. They don't know how to handle unusual situations like a player telling him he wants to wait for gaming to arrive.

edit to add: In a room that has to hire break in dealers you are looking for people that have potential to become good dealers. For a very inexperienced dealing staff we have a very good dealing staff. When somethig like this occurs it presents a teaching opportunity on how to handle cards that are thrown forward etc. Also being a new dealer he had never consdiered the possibility that someone might refuse to do what the floor told them they had to do and that a player did not have the right to stop the game.