Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Hi all, I have been playing for free at FullTilt for two months and I do really well even though people play crazy on there for free. I am wondering how I should start playing for real.

My bankroll is $50. I prefer playing no limit holdem and pot limi omaha hi. I am not sure if it is better to start out doing cash or tournies and what my buy in should be to manage my bankroll properly.

Help please!

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I've also moved from playmoney to real money a couple of weeks ago. Let me tell you, it really isn't the same...

Anyways, as to how you should manage your bankroll, try following Chris Ferguson advice on the following link.

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tip...on&tip=100

hope this help!

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Thanks, I heard Chris made all that money but I didn't know how he did it. So if I understand it right. I should bring in $2.5 at first until I reach a bankroll of $100 and then go up to $5. If I want to play those tournies I should do the $1.25.

Can I ask you if it makes a difference whether ur in the 45player, 90 player or the 180 player... would it be best to go for winning more more or have less players? Does the bigger field really make all that much of a difference?

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

This be the post to start you off gents:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

GL
Bear

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I'm not a gent lol. But Thanks for the help!

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

My general advice (especially with your roll) for someone just switching to real dough: play far, far tighter than you think is right at first, or at least until you've adjusted to the idea of winning losing/winning real money. Rarely limp, and never open limp. It will help keep you out of marginal situations. Seek out the shortstacking opponents, who are generally bad. Bet amounts that punish players for chasing draws (you'll find a ton of that in micro). Be a TAG c-better.

Perhaps most importantly: understand variance.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I know that in the play games you can rarely get anyone to ever fold. I tried doing the 3 or 4 bet raising there and determined I did better with the play money when I just waited for premium hands and went all in because any dummy will call, but I know it will be vastly different at a cash table.

But I am wondering how well do the micro limit cash player play? Do they understand that a 4 bet raise is a possible big pocket pair or will they do what playdough players do and call with anything? At least as far as your experience tells you.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Depends on the limit. In the micro limits people play like they are playing with 100,000's play and not actuall cash. They play the same as far as i could see, loose as hell, ignore raises that scream high pocks, get lucky, and then crack you fast.

They play marginally trashy, and tend to love them draws.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know that in the play games you can rarely get anyone to ever fold. I tried doing the 3 or 4 bet raising there and determined I did better with the play money when I just waited for premium hands and went all in because any dummy will call, but I know it will be vastly different at a cash table.

But I am wondering how well do the micro limit cash player play? Do they understand that a 4 bet raise is a possible big pocket pair or will they do what playdough players do and call with anything? At least as far as your experience tells you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I worked my way up from play money on three different sites, then starting at the lowest limits on PokerStars (1/2 cent cash and $1.20 SNG).

I lost my $50 bankroll a couple times, then ran it up to $170. Now I'm playing $5 SNG, and I plan to start playing some MTTs.

There are some incredibly bad players doing the micros. Kids playing with their parents money (and the other way around), and people who will come out and tell you they have no idea what they're doing, i.e., "This is my first time and I'm scared of losing my bankroll".

But I played micros, and most of the people reading this have as well. So everyone there can't be bad. In fact, I saw someone on PokerStars 12-tabling 1/2 cent cash games. I would much rather just move up to 2/4 cent, but to each his own.

So it will be a mixed bag. You might play a 1TT that's over in half an hour, followed by one where you have 5 left after 30 minutes.

You will be drawing with correct pot odds, and cursed and called a moron when you hit. There will be chat pushing right up to the edge of collusion (expect to be cursed again if you mention it).

There will of course be some nice people on (and some that don't chat at all), but be prepared for anything.

Generally, there will be between 0 and 2 other decent players at your table. Learn to adapt to the different players and styles that you will see.

Oh, one thing about the good players. There have been many times where myself and one other player were clearly better than the others. Often an unspoken agreement develops to stay out of each other's way.

I'll see that Joe doesn't play junk, and that he only raises when he has the goods. He figures out the same about me. After that, when one of us raises, it's usually an autofold for the other. We leave each other alone and eat the fish.

As far as losing my bankroll twice, that doesn't mean that you will. I was doing a lot of learning and experimenting. I tried different size SNG, from 9 players to 180. I played about with multitabling before I was really ready to do it. I didn't do much notetaking at first, thinking that at a big site like pokerstars I wouldn't see the same people in SNGs anyway, then saw the same player three days in a row.

Just keep learning, studying, and practicing, and you'll be fine.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a gent lol. But Thanks for the help!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry
My bad

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Did you lose your bankroll because of management or was it because of terrible bad beats?

I certainly hope not to lose my bankroll, but I do understand that it is a possibility. I guess if I do i'll just have to get a weekend job lol [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Clif, great post!

Here's my experience;
I deposited $50 on Full Tilt, ran it up to about $250 and lost it all. I deposited another $50, ran it up to $150 and cashed out $70 shortly before the UIGIA hit the fan. I got a $50 freeroll over at Absolute and ran it up to $75 or so before loosing all but $2 of it. I went over and played .02/.04 limit, until I had between 7-10 so I could go put $5 on the NL tables. Did that a few times until I caught a nice run and am now back up to about $50.

I can tell you that *every* time:
- on the way up, I was focused, attentive and playing about as well as I could play - given my knowledge and experience.
- on the way down, I was not focused, I played late, got tired, got stuck, got tilted and was not attentive at all.

Learning where your leaks are, and closing your leaks will be the most important skill you can learn starting off - and often your leaks don't come from loosing money in marginal spots. My biggest leaks don't come from my betting patterns, they come from not quitting when I should.

Now I'm off to read the post that post that bearwired linked to - it looks like a good one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Play Well!
- dubiousdrift

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I recommend starting at Poker Stars if you're bringing in only 50 dollars, because they have lower limits there.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you lose your bankroll because of management or was it because of terrible bad beats?

[/ QUOTE ]
The point of having a proper management is that terrible bad beats or coolers will not bust you.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

How do you initially get your money onto stars?

From the posts I've read, do I just go my bank account -> ePassporte -> Stars?

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

[ QUOTE ]
bank account -> ePassporte -> Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on where you are. In the US, this is the most popular way. If you live in Europe, it is likely there's a more direct payment option, like a bank transfer or even straight off of your credit card.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bank account -> ePassporte -> Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on where you are. In the US, this is the most popular way. If you live in Europe, it is likely there's a more direct payment option, like a bank transfer or even straight off of your credit card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm from the US, thanks.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

To respond to some unanswered questions:

Cash vs SNGS/MTTs: Do what you enjoy more. You can make money at either, but if you don't, then you are more entertained.

45 vs 90 vs 180 MTTs: The less the # of players in a tournament the lower the variance. This means that it's easier to figure out if you're a winning player or not the smaller the fields are.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you lose your bankroll because of management or was it because of terrible bad beats?

I certainly hope not to lose my bankroll, but I do understand that it is a possibility. I guess if I do i'll just have to get a weekend job lol [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Janelle,

The basic answer is that I got confused when I started playing for real money.

I played a lot of MTTs for play money, and that's what I thought I would be doing for real money as well.

Once I started playing real money MTTs, I discovered that I couldn't stand the variance.

I move betweent two cities right now, and in neither can I play whenever I want. IN one place the computer and the TV are in the same room, and in the other I share a computer with two roommates. (Both of these situations should be improved by the end of the year).

So, if I played an MTT that went for four hours, and I didn't caah, that was my shot for the day. I was trying to plan, be organized, and work toward certain hourly or daily win rates. Going a day or two and not winning anything just drove me crazy.

So, I was working around other people's schedules and sitautions, while at the same time trying to figure out what I was going to do if it wasn't MTTs.I eventually settled on SNG. Still tournaments, but at least I had a chance to affect my bankroll every day.

Before I played for real money, I had no idea that PokerStars had SNG from 9 players to 180, so I experimented with different sizes.

I also tried 1/2 cash, having never played a play money cash game, so I wasn't prepared for how different it was than tournaments. More leaks in my game and my money.

Then I started reading about mutitabling on 2+2, so I thought I should try that.

I was trying to win money, without being sure of exactly how I wanted to do it, and that's how I went through a couple bankrolls while I was trying to figure it out.

I think I'm going to start working my way back into MTT's, while playing enough SNG's to have some kind of regular poker income. Because of the variance of MTTs, any goals will probably be weekly rather than daily or hourly.

My goal is to tun poker into an at least decent part-time job, with a goal of making something like $10 an hour. I have no idea how long that will take--maybe a few months, maybe a year.

After I hit that goal, I'll reevaluate. I think that to make some serious money, it's going to have be the occasional big score of an MTT, becuase I stink at multitabling. But there is some money to be made with even a 5- or 10-dollar entry into an MTT.

Anyway, that's how I lost two bankrolls, where I am now, and my plan for the next 6 to 12 months. Any questions or comments are welcome.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I think people overestimate the differences in playdo and vary low limits like the penny ring.Now im not saying that their close all the time, but some of the higher limit playmoney games i have played in were actually tighter and tougher then some of the penny cash games i have played in.I played at pokerroom in the 10k preflop locked rooms where the avg players per flop was like %15 to %25 and thats way tighter then most penny games.

For me the transition was kind of easy mostly because i played vary vary tight in playdo and i think thats the key to making the move to real money games.In playdo its easy to play loose and still win but if you play a tight game i dont think the move is as hard.

If you only have $50 i would start at pokerstars but thats only 10 by ins for the 1c2cNL cash game so you might want to think about saving up another $50 so you will have 20 by ins.If your going to start at fulltilt i would not play their with less then $200 that would give you 20 byins.But if your only going to play their with $50 then you should not play the NL cash games thats only 5 by ins to start with and you would have to be vary good or run vary hot to survive.I would stick with the $1 sit and gos maybe some $1 multi trnys and freerolls to build your bankroll.

Also you should keep your playdo because its a great place to go blow of steam and get tilt out, my play money bankroll has saved my real one many times.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

wow, never thought of using my play account to blow off my tilt times. great idea! thanks. heh, not being sarcastic at all. i will use that idea a lot.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Theres nothing that I love more than sitting at a play money table and going all in every hand haha. Pisses people off so much and great stress release.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I'm a newbie here too, so I don't know if my opinion has any real value, but I can say that when I moved from play money to real money I started on tournies because:

(a) after the initial all-in fest the games seemed much more 'sensible' than the moron micros - so I thought it would be better for my game

(b) if I didn't make any crazy plays a $10 buy-in to a MTT could last a couple of hours, while I could be down two buy-ins on a micro table in less than 30 minutes

But I still hadn't read Harrington on Holdem book 2, I had never heard of 'M' and I didn't know that I should loosen up as my stack dwindled away - so I always lost. Big mistake!

So, for what it's worth, if I knew then what I know now, I'd have left the MTT's till later.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Hi.
When I read this post I can see that some of you´re playing small buy-in SNG´s. If it´s possible for you to play at Pacific (don´t know if they are US friendly) I´d recommend that you give it a try. When I had a big downswing in my NL cash play I spent some time trying to learn SNG tactics by playing $2.50/30c 6 handed SNG, and believe me, it´s very soft. Besides that Pacific pays the first 3 places evan in the 6 handed SNG´s. Basically it´s just your money back for 3rd place, but it´s money saved. This is the only site I´ve found that pays 3 places in a shorthanded SNG.

Just my 2 cents....

// M

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

my suggestion is when you pick the type of game you want to play (cash, sng, mtt) read the forums here. the FAQ for each of these will help out, including bankroll suggestions as well as some strategy.

goodluck!

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Poker Clif,

I think I will definately take your advice and avoid the MTTs. I don't have the time to devote to a game if it were to last 5 hrs.

I definately will start out just playing no more than 2 tables. I can see in your case having roomates can cause distractions which will lead to mistakes. I find even without any distractions that if more than two games are on I can't play as well as if I can concentrate on one or two.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I never played at Poker Stars before. I will try it out in play money and see how that goes... Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

One of the sites I play at is Absolute. They have .50 + .10 SNG that pay top 3. They're a cheap way to learn & earn.

Also I signed up on Absolute thru a site that gave me $50 for free to start me out. The site is www.pokersourceonline.com. I think I originally found them somewhere here on 2+2. If you try them tell them bill_nj sent you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Bill

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Don't forget, by practicing with playmoney, you are actually making money...

1 Million pokerstars playmoney can be sold for about 10$ in real money.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Oh I didn't know that thanks!! Will try that now!

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

How do you sell your play money on poker stars. I have over $2 mill play money, would love to sell it for $20 real

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

I saw a site that sold play money a long time ago but i don't remember the address, but I'm sure if you google sell pokerstars play money there are a few sites out there.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

google "pokerstars selling playmoney", and you'll get a list of sites buying/selling playmoney at different rates.

You'll chat to an operator telling how to proceed, and he'll than transfer you real money to your pokerstars account (it can be 0$ balance).

If don't feel safe about the site, try selling off 1M first, see it works, than sell the other 1M the next day.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

UPDATE: I now have been playing cash since the 5th of September and built my stack from the initial $50 to $443. I am trying to read as many instructional posts on 2+2 as I can in order to improve and not donk off all my winnings. Just thought I'd let you all know. Thanks for your help!

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Janelle,

Wow, I'm impressed! Just stay within your bankroll and you'll be fine. I'm sure you've read about the different systems: your buyin should be no more than x% of your bankroll OR move up when you have 30 buy-ins and move down when you have 10, etc.

What are you playing? Cash, SNG?

Continued good luck and good fortune to you.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Good freaking lord Janelle, how'd you do that? I've been playing since July and I've only made like 20 bucks haha, not including RB though.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

hey, just something i didn't see covered that i wish i'd had thought out a bit better. if you only have played play money at full tilt i think you can still sign up with rake back, not sure if anyone mentioned that or not, didn't see it. Also stars does have the lower limits, which you could use to build up your money and take better advantage of the first deposit bonus at Full tilt. sorry if this was covered i only skimmed the replies thus far

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

[ QUOTE ]
UPDATE: I now have been playing cash since the 5th of September and built my stack from the initial $50 to $443. I am trying to read as many instructional posts on 2+2 as I can in order to improve and not donk off all my winnings. Just thought I'd let you all know. Thanks for your help!

[/ QUOTE ]

Buy PokerTracker and Poker Ace Heads Up display. You're flying blind otherwise.

It's very hard to tell if you are just running hot, or if you're playing well without the stats to assess your play.

You also won't have as much opportunity to improve your game without the ability to analyze your play the way PT lets you analyze it.

EDIT: Ok, I just saw some post about PT's website being hacked and to avoid PT downloads until that's fixed. So, caveat emptor. But my point about getting hand analysis and HUD software is still good. Don't fly blind. None of the regulars on-line play without these tools, and neither should you.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Thanks, I have been playing cash PLO Omaha. I started at the 5c/10c table and then when I got to $350 bucks profit I was told I should move up to 10c/25c and from there I got to 526, so I thought I better cash out my original $50. It took 3 days before it went to my epassporte, but then I thought why not have a pokerstars account too! I pulled in the $50 on pokerstars and am going to try and have the same success there. Thanks for the support!

I was told about staying within 30Buyins after I moved up on this forum. I should be still playing 5c/10c according to that rule. I thought you can play 5% which is why i did 25PLO. So I am still playing some at the 5c/190c and some at the 10c/25c. If I lose some I move back down... regain confidence.. then move back up. I find my state of mind is very important and my energy level.

Thanks again for the nice post.

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Yes, I didn't realize it but I read some posts on here and signed up thanks!!

Re: Moving from Playdough to Real Dough
 

Actually I used up my free 1,000 hands on Omaha Poker Tracker and didn't have a clue how to use it.. then lol the last day when I got to my 1K hands I discovered playing back your hands and it showing winning %s and thought ahhh damn wish I knew it earlier lol!

BTW I dont know what Poker Ace Heads Up is.. is it relevant to Omaha? TY