IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

http://www.intellipoker.com/indexEN.htm

Pokerstars plans to start a school to teach the fish. I think this is the worst possible idea, educate the fish....nice. They say on the website they are going to have forums, blogs, rankings, lessons from pros, videos, etc. Greg Raymer, Barry Greenstein, Joe hachem, etc are going to be teaching it.

I e-mailed them saying how bad i think the idea is and how much im agaisnt them teaching the fish.I hope everyone will too.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

lol +1 for Stars.

Great idea, bring back Lee Jones, lets educate the fish, thanks stars, >3

Emailing them now.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Do not be afraid. Knowing and doing are two totally different things.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

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Do not be afraid. Knowing and doing are two totally different things.

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Thats the thing, they are going to do it. They already started making the website, there are buttons in the software under help(you cant click them yet), etc.

This is horrible.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Two Plus Two is a significantly better resource than Intellipoker will ever be. And clearly, all 95k members here are world class pros.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

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Do not be afraid. Knowing and doing are two totally different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this will just breed a false sense of being good in most the fish. It's going to take more then Moneymaker showing everyone how to live the luckbox life to turn a fish into a shark.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

I think that this will make the fish feel comfortable playing real money which will bring more money into the games. Party had its own school for quite a while now I guess this one is more in depth but I think this will be good for the games. I could be wrong though.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

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Two Plus Two is a significantly better resource than Intellipoker will ever be. And clearly, all 95k members here are world class pros.

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Yea but 2+2 isnt owned or supported by Pokerstars. I bet you PokerStars plans to advertise it in there little pop up window and have a cool flashy commercial on TV saying something like '....Pokerstars.net the only site with an online poker school to make you a better player!'


Maybe im just paranoid but the idea of stars putting<font color="red"> blogs, rankings, videos, forums, Lessons from pros(raymer, hachem, greenstein, Daniel N.) seems really bad to me.</font>

I emailed them

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

You should be like, not worried about this. I'm sure they are amused by your emails though.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Ridiculous thing to worry about. By this logic, Sklansky, Jones, Harrington, Brunson, etc should never have written their books, since "educating the fish" would tend to make games tougher.

I'm sure that you are the best player in existence, and therefore have much to fear from having to play in tougher games. But by this logic, you should be sending Sklansky an email telling him to close down this site--it also "educates the fish". While you're at it, why don't you petition ESPN, GSN, and the Travel Channel also? The hole card cams and discussion of strategy by the commentators are "educating the fish", and will make the games tougher. How will you ever be able to win with all these "secret strategies of the pros" being given away to Joe Sixpack?

pathetic...

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous thing to worry about. By this logic, Sklansky, Jones, Harrington, Brunson, etc should never have written their books, since "educating the fish" would tend to make games tougher.

I'm sure that you are the best player in existence, and therefore have much to fear from having to play in tougher games. But by this logic, you should be sending Sklansky an email telling him to close down this site--it also "educates the fish". While you're at it, why don't you petition ESPN, GSN, and the Travel Channel also? The hole card cams and discussion of strategy by the commentators are "educating the fish", and will make the games tougher. How will you ever be able to win with all these "secret strategies of the pros" being given away to Joe Sixpack?

pathetic...

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This brings up something I never understood. If someone mentions 2p2 in a pokerstars chat (which I have only done once or twice) p-eople will jump your ass for letting "the secrets of the universe" go...

are people here really that insecure with their own game?

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Like drug dealers offering the first "fix" for free in front of the schools....

[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous thing to worry about. By this logic, Sklansky, Jones, Harrington, Brunson, etc should never have written their books, since "educating the fish" would tend to make games tougher.

I'm sure that you are the best player in existence, and therefore have much to fear from having to play in tougher games. But by this logic, you should be sending Sklansky an email telling him to close down this site--it also "educates the fish". While you're at it, why don't you petition ESPN, GSN, and the Travel Channel also? The hole card cams and discussion of strategy by the commentators are "educating the fish", and will make the games tougher. How will you ever be able to win with all these "secret strategies of the pros" being given away to Joe Sixpack?

pathetic...

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Well all the things you mention arnt shoved into peoples face like it will most likely be on stars. I dont know why im pathetic for not wanting the fish to get smarter. Nice to see this thread is only on page 1 and were already throwing around middle school insults....

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

When Dr. Thorpe's blackjack book first came out the casinos panicked.

Then they realized that only a tiny percentage of blackjack players would ever learn to properly play the game, and all the others would continue to ignore the expert advice and play their own game.

Over 30 years ago I sat down at a blackjack table in Las Vegas and there were basic strategy cards on the table. The dealer said they gave free blackjack lessons several times a day, and dealers were instructed to always truthfully answer questions about basic strategy.

The fish still lost.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

I wonder if there really is anyone in this forum that honestly believes that this is about educating the fish and not about having them believe that now they can try the real money tables...

If you're out there thinking that, please write where you play, what stakes and your handle at the tables.

Thank you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Precisely my point. Out of every 1000 people who read a book about card counting in BJ, only about 100 or so manage to read it all the way through. Only 10 will memorize the strategies and act accordingly. And only one will manage his bankroll well, abstain from alcohol while playing, etc. The other 999? Suckers... Not only that, the very knowledge that blackjack was a potentially beatable game created huge interest amongst casino-goers--even those who had no intention of ever truly learning how to play the game.

The same is true for any other potential advantage player--video poker, the few truly well informed sports bettors, and Yes, poker players--even we brilliant 2p2ers. How many people (even on 2p2) really know Sklansky's hand rankings for LHE cold? How many people keep track of all the dead cards in a stud game?

Many of the skills involved in becoming a world class poker player are just "grunt work" (just like counting +1 for a small card, and -1 for a big card in BJ). I've seen so few people who are capable/willing to do even this much. I don't think that any online "poker school" is going to cut into my EV very much, if at all. Just as with blackjack, it will create more fish.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

The UIGEA did no harm either? Even if a small % improves....it will show....

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

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This is horrible.

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You really should re-evaluate your definition of "horrible".

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Fulltilt does just about the same thing and the play there is worse then stars imo.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.intellipoker.com/indexEN.htm

Pokerstars plans to start a school to teach the fish. I think this is the worst possible idea, educate the fish....nice. They say on the website they are going to have forums, blogs, rankings, lessons from pros, videos, etc. Greg Raymer, Barry Greenstein, Joe hachem, etc are going to be teaching it.

I e-mailed them saying how bad i think the idea is and how much im agaisnt them teaching the fish.I hope everyone will too.

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Sounds like good news to me.

THis goes under the category of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Inexperienced players are going to feel confident that they can now win.

The information to became a marginally winning player is available from many different resources. Having one more half asses resource will make no difference in the quality of play.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Wheres that dude that started a thread bitching about someone offering poker book advice at a table, im sure me and him will get along.

TBH, im very surprised that people are not totally agaisnt the fish having learning material right in front of their face for free. Even if most dont use it, if it only helps a small number get good, thats a small number that are no longer fish...

continue flaming....

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

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Fulltilt does just about the same thing and the play there is worse then stars imo.

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That's pretty much what I was thinking.
FT sends you freaking strategy articles via e-mail too. They practically try to hit you over the head with some reasonable advice to stop sucking so much.

PokerRoom has forums too I think.

Just because Stars is going to have some forums where strategy is discussed does not mean that the fish are suddenly going to become good.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When Dr. Thorpe's blackjack book first came out the casinos panicked.

Then they realized that only a tiny percentage of blackjack players would ever learn to properly play the game, and all the others would continue to ignore the expert advice and play their own game.

Over 30 years ago I sat down at a blackjack table in Las Vegas and there were basic strategy cards on the table. The dealer said they gave free blackjack lessons several times a day, and dealers were instructed to always truthfully answer questions about basic strategy.

The fish still lost.

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Thats becuase basic stategy alone will not make you a winner at the blackjack table. It will only make you lose less. You have to count cards to win.

The reason that even good counters still can't beat the blackjack games is because the stinkin casinos go to great lengths to stop them. They use automatic shufflers to enable them to shorten the penetration (heh heh, I said "penetration")into the deck without losing precious playing time, and when they do catch a counter they ban them from the casino and put his name in a book like a criminal.

Ok, I'm done being bitter about no good blackjack games anymore.

Anyway, of course making people think they can play better is a great thing for the games!

You don't really think that people who wouldn't ever take any initiative to learn the game by reading or coming to this site are suddenly going to become diligent students of the game because PStars will now have someone help teach them do you?

No. People who play the game for fun (namely fish) will always play for fun. They have regular jobs and play poker to pass time and blow a few bucks.

This "school" will only serve to attract more hopefuls like many at this site, some whom will become great players, some whom will tread water, and the majority of whom will never fully understand the game and leave the game and their money behind.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When Dr. Thorpe's blackjack book first came out the casinos panicked.

Then they realized that only a tiny percentage of blackjack players would ever learn to properly play the game, and all the others would continue to ignore the expert advice and play their own game.

Over 30 years ago I sat down at a blackjack table in Las Vegas and there were basic strategy cards on the table. The dealer said they gave free blackjack lessons several times a day, and dealers were instructed to always truthfully answer questions about basic strategy.

The fish still lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats becuase basic stategy alone will not make you a winner at the blackjack table. It will only make you lose less. You have to count cards to win.

The reason that even good counters still can't beat the blackjack games is because the stinkin casinos go to great lengths to stop them. They use automatic shufflers to enable them to shorten the penetration (heh heh, I said "penetration")into the deck without losing precious playing time, and when they do catch a counter they ban them from the casino and put his name in a book like a criminal.

Ok, I'm done being bitter about no good blackjack games anymore.

Anyway, of course making people think they can play better is a great thing for the games!

You don't really think that people who wouldn't ever take any initiative to learn the game by reading or coming to this site are suddenly going to become diligent students of the game because PStars will now have someone help teach them do you?

No. People who play the game for fun (namely fish) will always play for fun. They have regular jobs and play poker to pass time and blow a few bucks.

This "school" will only serve to attract more hopefuls like many at this site, some whom will become great players, some whom will tread water, and the majority of whom will never fully understand the game and leave the game and their money behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full Tilt also has a strategy forum.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

I am not against the poker schools under the ".nets," but it should be illegal to offer strategy stuffs (some detailed) on the .com sites, like starting hands by position, if it's a raised pot or not, and how to play post-flop. FullTilt even sends stuff like that on emails. It's next to the same thing as going to any casino and there being those on papers or so, like a Blackjack basic strategy (I think some sites have those too offered), or even the dealer telling what hands to play and recommends folding post-flop in a variety of situations.

It's supposed to be a neutral place and not some place where one's competition is improved; it goes under the name "collusion." If the casino itself wants to collude against itself (e.g. Blackjack), that's its own business, but it has no moral right to collude with the worse players, educate our competition; it took me some years to find and learn stuff that's offered on some .com sites - that's stealing time, money and energy from me. Under better laws I would win the case against them and get compensations.

Offline (and online) casinos may have poker books that they sell on their possible stores; that's not as bad but should also not be done. As an argument I could, when playing poker there, sometimes offer basic strategy cards for e.g. Blackjack players, and there's nothing the casino can do about it (though they could kick me out but the law will protect me, though it's not what usually is done, but one should just go to the police as all one did was offering basic strategy cards for some other fellow players). Stuff like that is usually the only way to do anything about things that are against my rights when the laws won't protect me. There's maybe nothing I can do about the online casinos here.

p.s. I would like to see the site rake tables also showing the average rake per hour, or so, one is paying playing this or that limit. But the only sites that are a sort of doing that are the ones offering more or less rakefree games. Now, what kind of a business is not saying how much it costs for its customers to play there? That's the single most important information that should be posted on their sites. Not posting it is illegal, as it's stealing, though not under the current laws.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

"The reason that even good counters still can't beat the blackjack games is because the stinkin casinos go to great lengths to stop them."


Similar to poker-players...the number of card-counters who think they are good is FAR greater than the number of card-counters who actually are good.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

this is great news, ty Stars

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Seriously, who cares? There are so many forums, let alone books that teach poker. 2+2 is not some secret haven for poker players. People still play bad.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

They could allay fears by simply hiring gambler2K4 as an instructor.

Someone mentioned the difference between a poker school like this and people mentioning 2+2 in chat.
The difference to me goes something like this...
Bad player sees pokerstars school info- thinks "hmm... i can learn to play mtts in order to play more real money, cool."
Bad player sees morans chatting up their stats, sites, and berating them and thinks "this really isnt very fun, and apparently there are people who take this very seriously and I'm really not up to that. Secret Handshake [censored]."

In short, the more you mention 2+2 the more likely 1) you alienate players thru berating or intimidation 2) some will actively seek to improve and realize there are players taking it seriously and 3) others will view it as some secret handshake society of colluders.

At least the stars school will be in plain sight for anyone who wants to learn, without risking intimidating the fish off the tables.

Fish find safety in schools. LDO.

Edit: one last point. I would much rather have people think they are learning most or all of what there is to learn thru a site like Pokerstars instead of coming here and investing real time into becoming good at the game. How hard is this for people to see?

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

"In the near future all of the activities of our members, including the regular visit to the IntelliPoker™ website, the writing of comments and evaluations, as well as other contributions, will be recorded in a points system very similar to PokerStars' FPP-program. These credits can be traded in for PokerStars merchandise articles, buy-ins for special online and live tournaments, or even real cash into the PokerStars account."

MicroBob can become an IP-SNE.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am not against the poker schools under the ".nets," but it should be illegal to offer strategy stuffs (some detailed) on the .com sites, like starting hands by position, if it's a raised pot or not, and how to play post-flop.

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Illegal??? You'd like lawmakers to lesgislate what it can tell players? I'm sure they'll be jumping all over this idea.

[ QUOTE ]
FullTilt even sends stuff like that on emails. It's next to the same thing as going to any casino and there being those on papers or so, like a Blackjack basic strategy (I think some sites have those too offered), or even the dealer telling what hands to play and recommends folding post-flop in a variety of situations.

It's supposed to be a neutral place and not some place where one's competition is improved; it goes under the name "collusion." If the casino itself wants to collude against itself (e.g. Blackjack), that's its own business, but it has no moral right to collude with the worse players, educate our competition;

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I didn't need the dictionary to tell me just how wrong you were, but I thought I'd paste this here for you:

col·lu·sion - [kuh-loo-zhuhn] –noun

1. a secret agreement, esp. for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy: Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.

2. Law. a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement: collusion of husband and wife to obtain a divorce.

I must be confused. It doesn't seem that Poker Stars is doing this secretly. It must be that Poker Stars has identified the fish, and ONLY lets them have this information, then? They won't allow you to have it as well?

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it took me some years to find and learn stuff that's offered on some .com sites - that's stealing time, money and energy from me. Under better laws I would win the case against them and get compensations.

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Wait...I thought Poker Stars was paying people to write and provide poker advice to their players. You mean that instead they have stolen all of your own original material on the subject? Bastards! Well, since it's all of your material they are using, you should be able to sue them...contact a lawyer!

[ QUOTE ]
Offline (and online) casinos may have poker books that they sell on their possible stores; that's not as bad but should also not be done. As an argument I could, when playing poker there, sometimes offer basic strategy cards for e.g. Blackjack players, and there's nothing the casino can do about it (though they could kick me out but the law will protect me, though it's not what usually is done, but one should just go to the police as all one did was offering basic strategy cards for some other fellow players). Stuff like that is usually the only way to do anything about things that are against my rights when the laws won't protect me. There's maybe nothing I can do about the online casinos here.

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Huh?

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p.s. I would like to see the site rake tables also showing the average rake per hour, or so, one is paying playing this or that limit. But the only sites that are a sort of doing that are the ones offering more or less rakefree games. Now, what kind of a business is not saying how much it costs for its customers to play there? That's the single most important information that should be posted on their sites. Not posting it is illegal, as it's stealing, though not under the current laws.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know what site this is that doesn't provide all of their rake structure for you to view on their website.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

Tuff_fish has been a CR member for how long? How is his game? No school in the world will help you if you're unwilling to learn, and most fish have the attitude that they know everything, or close to everything, and are just unlucky.

My initial reaction was that this is bad, but I quickly realized this can only be good. I think it might even be good in the battle to show poker is a game of skill.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wheres that dude that started a thread bitching about someone offering poker book advice at a table, im sure me and him will get along.

TBH, im very surprised that people are not totally agaisnt the fish having learning material right in front of their face for free. Even if most dont use it, if it only helps a small number get good, thats a small number that are no longer fish...

continue flaming....

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This is definitely a valid concern at lower limits but for higher limit players who view almost everyone as a fish this is just going to bring them more fish, so its a good thing.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

out of curiosity, what do people who are unhappy include in their email to stars?

Does it go something like this?

[ QUOTE ]

Dear PokerStars,

I think you should keep your customers ignorant.

I think that if your customers are ignorant of poker strategy, I will be able to make more money from then.

regards,
Moron536

[/ QUOTE ]

How can anyone possibly claim that PokerStars have an obligation to you to maintain ignorance amongst their customer base?

Is this not one of the most silly things posted here in the last few hours?

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

What languages will IntelliPoker™ offer?

German. Other languages will follow as soon as possible.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can anyone possibly claim that PokerStars have an obligation to you to maintain ignorance amongst their customer base?


[/ QUOTE ]

They don't have an obligation to us, but it is in THEIR best interest.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
They don't have an obligation to us, but it is in THEIR best interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how?

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They don't have an obligation to us, but it is in THEIR best interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how?

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Because if the fish all go from losers to break even players, they play longer and pay more rake.

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They don't have an obligation to us, but it is in THEIR best interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how?

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, A poster with ZERO IQ. Congrats...

Re: IntelliPoker -Pokerstars plans to educate the fish?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They don't have an obligation to us, but it is in THEIR best interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how?

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Because if the fish all go from losers to break even players, they play longer and pay more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't get how this is bad for PokerStars.