When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

Hello,

At what point should the dealer shove the chips to the winning player. The reason I ask is because of the following.

This is how the hand went down.
blinds 1/1

3 limps I limp with k10s on the button.
SB raises to 8 he raises about 50% of pots from any position.
(I also knew he was going to raise before the flop due to a tell I have on him).
2 calls
I reraise to 50 trying to just take the hand down there.
SB FOLDs
1st player folds.
2nd player calls she only had 20 more so I get my change.

Board comes down and I did not hit any of the board. I say K and table my hand. The woman says a pair of fours and tables her hand 94s. The table goes whooooo. The dealer pushes the pot to the woman and scoops the board. I still have hold of my cards. I ask the dealer to relay out the board as he still has the cards in his hand and in the correct order. The board is J 4 7 J 7 I tell the dealer that the 4 does not play and I have the winning hand. He then tells the woman to give me the chips. The woman compalins that she should be able to keep the pot as it she was determined the winner by the dealer and passed the chips. She gets a ruleing and the floor makes the right ruleing and awards me the pot.

Other questions I have about this hand.

Could I have asked to go to the camera if the dealer mucked the board.

What if the table is not covered with a camera.

Thanks Mark.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

Don't table a hand until the river. Determining a winner at the flop is pointless.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

The dealer should not push the pot until he has killed all the non-winning hands.hen at that point if the pot gets pushed to the wrong player we can ask you why you didn't speak up when the dealer killed your hand.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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Don't table a hand until the river. Determining a winner at the flop is pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]Even so, the dealer was an idiot. It would be like an umpire calling the winner of a baseball game based on the score at the 4th inning. I would be very wary of playing while this dealer was dealing in any future games.

And at least the OP caught the dealer's mistake in time, and made him deal the rest of the board, and called the floor to resolve it.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

sry the complete board was out. And we tabled our hand after the river.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

I think you are misreading the OP. (well thats because it was poorly written) I believe that the OP means a full board was dealt and the dealer misread the hand -- didn't realize the player who had been winning on the flop was now counterfeited.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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(well thats because it was poorly written)

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English never has been one of my strong points.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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I think you are misreading the OP. (well thats because it was poorly written) I believe that the OP means a full board was dealt and the dealer misread the hand -- didn't realize the player who had been winning on the flop was now counterfeited.

[/ QUOTE ]Oh, OK. In that case, the dealer was just not thinking (maybe tired?), or is still an idiot. At least not as much an idiot as I initially thought.

There's really not much to comment on. You didn't release your hand, you called out the mistake, the dealer corrected it, and the floor upheld the decision. Pretty simple.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board and mixed the board with the other cards. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

[/ QUOTE ]I ask them to review the tape. If they won't do that, or don't have cameras, then don't play there again and contact the state's gaming commission.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

not necessarily. Your initial question was when should the dealer push the pot.

Now you ask what happens when he does it wrong. Part of this answer will depend on when you speak up and if it can be confirmed that you in fact had the winner. (If the dealer has destroyed the board you don't get to win the pot just cause you claim to have a winner.

You need to speak up immediately don't wait for the dealer to psuh the pot destroy the board and then speak up. Say ething as soon as the pot starts going the wrong way. If you delay you have to share responsibility for the mistake.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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Even so, the dealer was an idiot. It would be like an umpire calling the winner of a baseball game based on the score at the 4th inning. I would be very wary of playing while this dealer was dealing in any future games.

And at least the OP caught the dealer's mistake in time, and made him deal the rest of the board, and called the floor to resolve it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad you have gone through your life without EVER making a mistake...However, many dealers DO make a mistake once and a while. Hundreds of hands a day, there is bound to be one or two that don't go perfectly... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Which is exactly why the rule "Cards speak for themselves" exists. If players would simply just table his or her hand at the end (keeping a finger on the cards to "protect the hand"), and wait for the pot to be pushed correctly, there would be less problems like this.

Most of the time, as long as both cards are turned face up and kept by the players, if the dealer misreads the hand and starts to push the pot the wrong way, players will generally jump and make the correction before it gets too far.

But let's say not only the dealer misreads the hand, but so does the person who SHOULD have won the hand, and the pot is pushed, chips are stacked, etc; If someone realizes the pot was pushed the wrong way, generally you can go to the tape as long as the cards were turned up and visible.

Nothing is more irritating than those that just show one card to try and win, or those that don't actually "table the hand" and instead hold the cards up so only people at the table can see. - Just table the hand, keep it in your control until the pot is pushed and then move on to the next hand...

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

[/ QUOTE ]I ask them to review the tape. If they won't do that, or don't have cameras, then don't play there again and contact the state's gaming commission.

[/ QUOTE ]

The stationary cameras above the tables are typically not very effective for seeing details like card values. This is why you often hear that review of the tape was inconclusive on this type of dispute.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

[/ QUOTE ]I ask them to review the tape. If they won't do that, or don't have cameras, then don't play there again and contact the state's gaming commission.

[/ QUOTE ]

The stationary cameras above the tables are typically not very effective for seeing details like card values. This is why you often hear that review of the tape was inconclusive on this type of dispute.

[/ QUOTE ]True, but my response was based on a case where they wouldn't even bother to review the tape, or don't even have cameras in the first place. I would not want to play again in such a casino in that case.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

[/ QUOTE ]I ask them to review the tape. If they won't do that, or don't have cameras, then don't play there again and contact the state's gaming commission.

[/ QUOTE ]

The stationary cameras above the tables are typically not very effective for seeing details like card values. This is why you often hear that review of the tape was inconclusive on this type of dispute.

[/ QUOTE ]True, but my response was based on a case where they wouldn't even bother to review the tape, or don't even have cameras in the first place. I would not want to play again in such a casino in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the 3 years I have been dealing I have never had the floor go to the tape for a game issue. The only time I had floor say they called surveillance over a dispute was an incident where an old man who asked to move to the six seat got up walked over to the five seat (the player had gone to the bathroom and put down his chips mixed in with the 5 seats chips.hey went to the camera to see if they could determine how much the 5 seat had . . . result was inconclusive (generally supported the estimate 5 seat gave but we could not determine exact amount.)

I have seen in some other rooms floors who run to call surveillance on every dispute. I consider them to be weak floors.

And the other odd thing is that when players start calling for the tape to be checked it is often for things where the tape couldn't possibly help them. A had a player who in the 1 seat pushed his cards forward and leaned back from the table. I mucked his hand thinking this was a fold. his hand was unidentifiable. he starts throwing a temper tantrum. Keeps telling the floor to check the tape. What does he think, the cameras can see the underside of his cards? his cards are gone -- even if I was wrong to muck them, the camera can't tell us what they are.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

[/ QUOTE ]I ask them to review the tape. If they won't do that, or don't have cameras, then don't play there again and contact the state's gaming commission.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sucks if there's nothing they can do. However, in my admitedly limited experience, players who claim they've had the winning hand after the dealer has mucked the board are correct less than half the time (i.e., the dealer is usually right).

So, if this is an isolated incident, that's life. If things like this happen alot and the casino is poorly run, find a different place to play, if possible.

It seems to me that the only jerk in this entire scenario is the player with the counterfeited pair of 4s who wanted to keep the pot because the dealer made a mistake.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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I have seen in some other rooms floors who run to call surveillance on every dispute. I consider them to be weak floors.

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I called surveillance for the second time ever (for a table dispute) the other night. It was a 6 handed dealer's choice game and they were playing pineapple high low. There was an inexperienced dealer dealing. The dealer has divided the pot between the player that makes the game happen and another player. The dealer has just mucked everything and the sharpest player in the game speaks up and says the player that drives the game should have gotten the whole pot. Another player agreed that is what she saw. The player with the winning hand isn't able to read her own hand in high low split games so she doesn't know if she should have gotten the whole pot. I was pretty sure what the tape was going to show as the only two players in the game that could read their hand without assistance were telling me the same thing. I called surveillance because I didn't have the required three players telling me what I needed to hear. With a lot of players I would told them they had to protect their hand, but in this case that would have been unfair because this player can't read her own hand, she calls alls bets and then turns up her hand to see if she won anything.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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So if I still have my hand and the casino has passed the pot and scooped the board and mixed the board with the other cards. I then say my hand is the winner what should be the ruleing.

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Rule #1: Protect Your Hand

My ruling is that you should speak up immediately and not just sit back to watch the drama unfold. At what point in pushing pot, scooping board, and washing deck did your tongue fall out of your head and your arms fall off your torso and the rest of your body become completely immobile? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

To answer your original question, I always kill all losing hands even if they're thrown in face-down. I move the board and player's cards out of the way face-up (or sometimes face-down but away from the muck). Then I push the pot. Then I kill the board/hand and move on. But not everybody is like that. Speak up, protect your hand. People, including dealers, make mistakes. It's the players who sit back with an air of righteousness and disbelief that nobody is seeing the tragedy that is taking place... those are the players who have regular problems. Not saying you're one of those, but based on your OP you could go down that path. Don't be That Guy. Save yourself now!

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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she calls alls bets and then turns up her hand to see if she won anything.

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Can you clone her a few million times? We could all retire early.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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she calls alls bets and then turns up her hand to see if she won anything.

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Can you clone her a few million times? We could all retire early.

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You'd practically need a few million of her to retire. This is a $5 game... the maximum in Colorado. She's almost correct to do so on pot odds alone every time anyway.

RR, go get the gaming commission to let us play spread limit... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

Any professional dealer should know that the pot should not be awarded until all losing hands are killed. That is the answer to your initial question. In the case of a dealer error, when a hand that is clearly a winner is killed and the pot is awarded to a losing hand, usually a player will have until the start of the next hand to ask for a ruling. In some cases, and I have personally had to do this, the pot can be suspended by the house and the game asked to continue while a ruling is being made. (this may include review of the cameras, or asking other players at the table what they saw). As for the woman not wanting to give up the pot... she is clearly wrong and should understand that she held the losing hand and does not deserve the pot. I hate when people think they deserve to win due to dealer error!!

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

At what point in pushing pot, scooping board, and washing deck did your tongue fall out of your head and your arms fall off your torso and the rest of your body become completely immobile? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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This is how the action went on the river.

I turn over my hand and declare k high (Mistake on my part), The woman declares a pair of fours (at this point the dealer has already started to push her the pot). The woman turns over her cards. I am looking at her hand 94s in disbeleef. I look up at the board and the dealer has just scooped the board I ask him to relay out the board.

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

lets look at the positives:

1. OP tabled his hand
2. OP didn't let go of his hand.
3. OP spoke right up after the 2 seconds it took to realize her pair was counterfeit.
4. Floor made the right call.

woot

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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she calls alls bets and then turns up her hand to see if she won anything.

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Can you clone her a few million times? We could all retire early.

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I know of several places that are like this. It is harder to win than you think, it is not poker, it is just who will have the best hand in the end?
But, if you insist, google cardrooms in Northern CA. Then go to mapquest and you will soon find yourself in "Nofold 'em Hell"

Re: When should the dealer push the chips to the winning player
 

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At what point in pushing pot, scooping board, and washing deck did your tongue fall out of your head and your arms fall off your torso and the rest of your body become completely immobile? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how the action went on the river.

I turn over my hand and declare k high (Mistake on my part), The woman declares a pair of fours (at this point the dealer has already started to push her the pot). The woman turns over her cards. I am looking at her hand 94s in disbeleef. I look up at the board and the dealer has just scooped the board I ask him to relay out the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you did what you needed to do to protect your hand but the dealer started pushing her the chips as soon as she announced her pair of 4's. He should have waited until she tabled them. Your misread didn't help things but the dealer is supposed to wait until he sees the winning hand tabled or all other hands mucked before he pushes the pot.