Cash Game & Tournament Differences
 

So I've been bouncing back in forth between cash games and tournaments a lot lately and I know several other posters are as well.

I've noticed quite a few differences in cash games and tournaments. So I thought a thread to discuss those differences might be helpful. Feel free to add any you have noticed.

Here are a few things I have noticed:

1) Tournament villains are way worse on average than cash game villains. By worse, I mean tournament villains are bigger calling stations and overvalue weak hands more. So this means a couple of things: In tournaments more than in cash games, look to shove the river for value. Also, you might play marginal to strong hands more aggressively in tournaments b/c you will get called lighter. In cash games, you can make an occasional big bluff on the river when you have set yourself up for it. Players will sometimes let go of TP in cash games.

2) The rebuy button is so fantastic in cash games. You can always play 100BBs deep. In tournaments, you are lucky if you get more than 30 minutes of 100BB deep play. This often forces you to play more straightfoward in tournaments than in cash games. A lot of creativity is lost b/c of decreased implied odds.

Those are just two with the 2nd one being relatively obvious. Any other differences people have noticed?

Re: Cash Game & Tournament Differences
 

when i play SNGs, my work (reading othe players, feelin the table) is done by the time the blinds reach 50/100 since at that point, the game is now like you mentioned 'straightfoward'

well not for the noobs who still shove kj o...but for me at least...i'll just sit back and play my good hands out and hope for the best

edit: 27 player SNGs

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When I do play ring games, I'm way more aggressive, raise much more, reraise more, etc.

This is mostly due to playing 6-max rather than full ring.

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Yeah mostly because it's 6-max, but I 3-bet way more often and way way wider.

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Also, pairs and suited connectors/one gappers can be played in raised pots and I basically never limp anything.

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When I do play ring games, I'm way more aggressive, raise much more, reraise more, etc.

This is mostly due to playing 6-max rather than full ring.

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really? i thought ppl call more and reraise less in cash games?

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tourneys are more satisfying when you make a final table or finish high

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When I do play ring games, I'm way more aggressive, raise much more, reraise more, etc.

This is mostly due to playing 6-max rather than full ring.

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really? i thought ppl call more and reraise less in cash games?

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No, most guys in uNL advise running somewhere from 18/15/3 to 25/22/3. Obviously if you play well you can be much laggier than that and sometimes tables dictate you should be tighter. If you look in the Stats thread in uNL I remember one guy who was at 18/17 over something like 26k hands so that's basically never calling PF.

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The biggest difference between tournament and cash poker is that you can win money in tournament poker by folding and having other players bust out before you. The only way to win money in cash games is to play hands. If you don't, the blinds/ante will eat your stack and you'll lose money.

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im good at tourneys and i suck at cash games

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Well in tournaments you have to play until all the chips belong to one person obviously so you need to be skilled at more than one form of poker. You play deep stacked at the begginng short stacked at the middle and end and short handed if you go deep. The most stressful time for me is when you get ddown to aobut 10-14 players no one has a huge stack compared to blinds and the table is short handed.

I think there is more alot more strategy too. Pay jumps and getting in the money influence your decisions and affect the way you play/should play. Its alot easeir to push on your 1% edge in cash game than in a tourney one bad hand can ruin you.

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simply put, tournament players over value their tp/mp. Cash players proceed w/ tp/mp cautiously.

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simply put, tournament players over value their tp/mp. Cash players proceed w/ tp/mp cautiously.

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So does this mean tournament players are worse? Or is there something intrinsic about tournaments which mean it is right to value tp more?

Re: Cash Game & Tournament Differences
 

Tournaments require skills in all areas - deep stack, short stack, full table, short handed, heads up, etc.

Also, with cash games you should take all +Ev bets. In tournaments sometimes you shouldn't (near bubble, keep short stack alive, etc). This is my opinion and others may disagree.

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simply put, tournament players over value their tp/mp. Cash players proceed w/ tp/mp cautiously.

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So does this mean tournament players are worse? Or is there something intrinsic about tournaments which mean it is right to value tp more?

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I see two reasons for people stacking off with TP more. Firstly, in a cash game it's rarely correct because a lot of the time it's 100BB+ stacks when you very rarely should. In tourneys, a lot of time is played with stacks, though not considered "short", short enough for felting TP to be correct/nearly correct.
Secondly, if one plays "an average small stakes tourney" we're talking say $10. "small stakes NL cash" tends to be say $100NL. So it's no real surprise tourneys players are worse/stack off with TP wrongly more

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When I do play ring games, I'm way more aggressive, raise much more, reraise more, etc.

This is mostly due to playing 6-max rather than full ring.

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really? i thought ppl call more and reraise less in cash games?

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At lower limit NL cash.. I agree. By that, I mean they call light and are lagier... not the re-raise part.

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simply put, tournament players over value their tp/mp. Cash players proceed w/ tp/mp cautiously.

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And I still have no idea why I expect a tournament player to ever fold a TPTK type of hand:

PokerStars Game #11775617337: Tournament #59099144, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/08/30 - 14:02:24 (ET)
Table '59099144 50' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: the_govau (1340 in chips)
Seat 2: Raw Kat (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: jeffrey jack (1730 in chips)
Seat 4: CoachWhitey (1540 in chips)
Seat 5: MathMagic1 (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: BigIbsen (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: teamarf (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: citizenben (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: rhe041 (1500 in chips)
CoachWhitey: posts small blind 10
MathMagic1: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MathMagic1 [Kc Tc]
BigIbsen has timed out
BigIbsen: folds
BigIbsen is sitting out
teamarf: folds
citizenben: folds
rhe041: folds
the_govau: folds
Raw Kat: folds
jeffrey jack: folds
CoachWhitey: raises 60 to 80
MathMagic1: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Ts 6s 7c]
CoachWhitey: bets 200
MathMagic1: calls 200
*** TURN *** [Ts 6s 7c] [5h]
CoachWhitey: bets 300
MathMagic1: raises 920 to 1220 and is all-in
CoachWhitey: calls 920
*** RIVER *** [Ts 6s 7c 5h] [3s]
MathMagic1 said, "wp"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CoachWhitey: shows [Ad Td] (a pair of Tens)
MathMagic1: shows [Kc Tc] (a pair of Tens - lower kicker)
MathMagic1 said, "gg"
CoachWhitey collected 3000 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3000 | Rake 0
Board [Ts 6s 7c 5h 3s]
Seat 1: the_govau folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Raw Kat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jeffrey jack (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: CoachWhitey (small blind) showed [Ad Td] and won (3000) with a pair of Tens
Seat 5: MathMagic1 (big blind) showed [Kc Tc] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 6: BigIbsen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: teamarf folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: citizenben folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: rhe041 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Re: Cash Game & Tournament Differences
 

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simply put, tournament players over value their tp/mp. Cash players proceed w/ tp/mp cautiously.

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So does this mean tournament players are worse? Or is there something intrinsic about tournaments which mean it is right to value tp more?

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IMO, yes. Tournament players are way worse on average than cash game players and it's not even close.

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IMO, yes. Tournament players are way worse on average than cash game players and it's not even close.

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A very bad assessment.

Tournament and cash poker are two different breeds of poker and each one of them requires a different approach. In cash games, you can afford to lay down big hands because you're not facing escalating blinds/ante. You're grinding it out at the same levels against generally speaking the same opponents.

In tournaments, you're moved from table to table and have to constantly adjust your game to the different table conditions. Players come and go real fast and you have to get quick reads on them before you get involved in a big pot with them. Since the blinds and ante eventually catch up to your stack, you can't afford to fold TPTK if the situation is correct. Eventually, the blinds and ante will consume you and you'll stack off if you grind it out the way cash players do.

In other words, cash players are basically playing one neverending session of poker. Tournament players have to play for a fixed amount of time and have to make the most of what they have during that short session.

Tournaments and cash games are only similar in the early stages of tournaments where the blinds and ante are deep relative to your stack size and you can afford to grind it out for a while. But that only lasts for the first 3-4 blind levels in online play.

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IMO, yes. Tournament players are way worse on average than cash game players and it's not even close.

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A very bad assessment.

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Put some winning cash game players in some good tournaments and they will win $. Put some winning tournament players in good cash games and they are much less likely to win.

Basically, good cash game players have no problem adjusting to tournaments. Good tournament players have many more problems.

FWIW, I used to be on the tournament players are the best bandwagon. But they aren't.

Edit: Beyond that, I said the AVERAGE tournament player vs. the AVERAGE cash player isn't close. Not that all cash game players are better than tournament players. That isn't close either.

2nd Edit: I also used to think this: "Tournament players are better b/c they have to adapt to changing situations all the time, and cash players don't have to face that."

But it turns out, that those "changing situations" are pretty [censored] simple to figure out. OMG, I have 10BBs, what ever should I do? A winning cash game player can quickly adapt to tournaments, much more difficult to go the other way around.

Edit 3: B/c I really don't want this to be a debate about who is better. That is unsolvable and really quite pointless. There are great players in both, I play both, and I enjoy both.

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OK I dont think any have really gotten to some of the crux of the differences yet. I will list some:

1: Cash emphasizes deep stack ability primarily, where Tournaments last far longer through middle to small stacks, where BB stacks are 30 or less for a majority of most tournaments. This then means the players that are better at one and two street poker make far better players in tournaments. Preflop hand evaluation alone will never make someone an expert in deep stack cash play. We cannot rebuy so forcing early all in coinflips with a small edge, which shouldnt be passed up if possible in cash, might need to be passed up in tournaments. Chips are not cash.

2: You must always give your chips a premium value in tournament poker, and NEVER in cash games. Just because you post the blind doesnt mean its your money in cash. You should never forgoe a chance to win 50$ cash just because you risk losing 49 of YOUR dollars. This is totally not true in tournament poker. In tournament poker, you MUST give your chips a premium for three distinct reasons. First, we must assume we have an edge on our opposition and the chips in our hand matter more than incremental chips we win. Second, additional chips do not incrementally increase our chance at first place, so therefore no matter where our stack is, our equity in the tournament will never double by doubling our chip stack (except for odd satellites and seat satellites sometimes in a seat satellite doubling our chips infinitely increases our chance of winning a seat). Third, because our chair (or folding into cash) has value, which there is a distinct value to, so for each chip we lose, the remaining chips gain in $ value.

And finally,

3: As the hand progresses, sheer pot odds cannot dictate decisions in tournament poker. People will often fold on the river for their last 2000 chips in a 20k pot if they are fairly certain they are beat, so they do not bust their chair. This should never happen in cash. In cash pot size bets through every street are perhaps most appropriate. In tournaments each street can have smaller and smaller bet sizes, yet the power of each bet can remain the same. As we dive further into our stacks, our chips have more value yet.

So, each of these points is an aspect of chips are not cash, and its the crux of tournament vs cash poker.

4Card

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#2+3=good post

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This then means the players that are better at one and two street poker make far better players in tournaments.

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I think this really gets to the heart of the matter. I'm a pretty good low-stakes tourney player (or so I think anyway) but I really struggle at cash, and its the later streets which I have the most problems with.

In tournaments, the two biggest decisions need to be made on pre-flop and/or on the flop.

These decisions are
1. Do I play this hand?
2. Am I willing to get all my chips in with this hand?

The first is obviously made pre-flop, the second needs to be made as early as possible and generally by the flop at the latest.

These decisions, once made, pretty much dictate play for the rest of the hand.

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tournaments are cool to win but in cash games i get more freedom to be really bad ass

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1) Tournament villains are way worse on average than cash game villains. By worse, I mean tournament villains are bigger calling stations and overvalue weak hands more.

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Yea, that's me.

I've decided I need to visit the PL/NL forums before I play any more cash games.

There was a thread I read recently where this was discussed.

"Step into the tee box" by Jason Strasser

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1