damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

sb is 24/11/1.2 over 300ish hands.

my image is very lag due to a sick run of broadway hands and med/big pp's. most not going to sd.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (11 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds,

Final Pot: 15 BB

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

just look at the pot size

ofc your hand is beat almost all the time. But you still are ahead more than 1 in 15 times.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

Haha, who was it that made a post a week or so ago about paying off river a c/r with one pair? I think he found that he was like very rarely (ever?) good. Anyway I call, but I'm not convinced you are good 1 in 14 times...

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

TAF of 1.2 doesn't mean he won't ever bluff here.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

I don't think AF of 1.2 means [censored] about whether an opponent bluff check-raises rivers in these spots. Occasional random spazzyness does not show up in stats over 300 hands, and that is the only way anybody is ever bluffing here. Seriously, this is a bluff like 1% of the time. Nevertheless, I still call because I simply don't trust my reasoning in spots like this in the 30 seconds I have to think during a hand.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

The sethypooh theorem on river play is approximately:

TPTK. Huge pot. One Bet. Closing action. Snap call.

I lose 1 bet the majority of the time, 1 time in x look quizzically at the screen as pot is shipped to me. I get to keep my sanity and move on to the next hand.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

I think this is a pretty easy fold against someone with those stats

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

Looking at this again and again, considering that I would hate, hate HATE bet-folding here, I'm not sure I bet this river, as it's a pretty ugly card for us.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

i can`t see u folding here,pot is 15BB,so u need to win it once in 15 times.and u will...

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

The villain's stats suggest he's a reasonable player and no reasonable player would c-raise here after that action if they couldn't beat TPTK.

I think you'll lose more than 1:15, but I'd still have to call. For my sanity, for metagame, for the slim chance it's a missed draw desperation raise, for future reads, I'd find a call.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

Now that its been mentioned, I think there is defintiely merit in checking behind vs 2 players here. I can't remember the last time I've actually done that in practice tho

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

your hand certainly doesn't look as promising now as it did on the flop. I think this is a check behind or a b/f...

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

ridic easy fold. also easy bet. QJ calls, QdX calls. weak Ax/Tx calls, and you can basically never be c/red off the best hand here. what, is he going to c/r QdJ here or what?

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

Considering his stats i would fold this hand the majority of the time. I think A-Q or Kx-Jd are likely hands in this scenario and you should probably fold and save yourself a bet. I know situations like this are frustrating, and the easy thing would be to call, but in the long run it is +ev to fold.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

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Looking at this again and again, considering that I would hate, hate HATE bet-folding here, I'm not sure I bet this river, as it's a pretty ugly card for us.

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sethypooh, this is interesting. I've also found that there are some occasional times when it is +ev for *me* to c/c the river because I am unable/unwilling to fold for one extra bet and the likelihood that I am behind has drastically increased.

its kinda a shame though cuz b/f is so clearly the right play in lots of river situations.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

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Looking at this again and again, considering that I would hate, hate HATE bet-folding here, I'm not sure I bet this river, as it's a pretty ugly card for us.

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sethypooh, this is interesting. I've also found that there are some occasional times when it is +ev for *me* to c/c the river because I am unable/unwilling to fold for one extra bet and the likelihood that I am behind has drastically increased.

its kinda a shame though cuz b/f is so clearly the right play in lots of river situations.

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Yeah, it's also possible that this is me misapplying a lesson from NL about not 'betting myself off of the best hand' especially in a very sizable pot.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

yeah, I agree 100% with myles as well as on his confidence level.

Im pretty bad at laying hands down to river c/r but I could def do it here without sweating it.. Even in practise.

First of all

1) There are tons of hands that beat you that calls PF
2) Nothing you are ahead of would think they are ahead enough to check/raise
3) The pot is 3 handed and started 4 handed
4) youve shown strength on a high card AND draw heavy board
5) The Q completes a lot of straight + two pair draws... But thers also a signiicant chance in your opponents eyes that it helped you!

This is literally the worst spot for someone to bluff at.. Which is why you can easily lay down TPTK to a solid player.

Its not even as if folding to a c/r here is that bad if you get bluffed because so often your going to have a hand stronger than AK here. Once you bet this river, AK is probabily one of the worst hands in your range.

I also bet because they havent shown any strength, and ppl are bad, so will likely look you up with any decent pair.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

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I also bet because they havent shown any strength, and ppl are bad, so will likely look you up with any decent pair.

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he did donk the flop...

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

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Haha, who was it that made a post a week or so ago about paying off river a c/r with one pair? I think he found that he was like very rarely (ever?) good. Anyway I call, but I'm not convinced you are good 1 in 14 times...

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That was Guy McSucker. I checked my data, and at low limits I was good about 17% of the time with one-pair after a river c/r. That would make it an easy call.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Haha, who was it that made a post a week or so ago about paying off river a c/r with one pair? I think he found that he was like very rarely (ever?) good. Anyway I call, but I'm not convinced you are good 1 in 14 times...

[/ QUOTE ]
That was Guy McSucker. I checked my data, and at low limits I was good about 17% of the time with one-pair after a river c/r. That would make it an easy call.

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seems extraordinarily high. also, regardless of any past empirical data, there's no way this hand is anything but a fold.

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

you guys remind me of this old guy I play against sometimes, after putting in yet another losing river call he'll say "I'd rather go home broke than curious"

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

That guy sounds wise....but likely a poor poker player

Re: damnit damnit damnit.......... river decision
 

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That guy sounds wise....but likely a poor poker player

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Perhaps. Perhaps he is a great poker player when expressed in utility.