8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

Here's a hand from Friday that ended up being a huge pot.

I'm in the SB with K 7 offsuit. 6 players limp to me, I throw in $10 and the big blind checks. 8 of us to the flop.

The flop is K 8 4 (two hearts). My immediate thinking is that if the flop contained another high card with the K I would probably check as there would be all kinds of possible hands out there (like if it was K J 4 I would have to worry about ALL the high cards that could make a straight where people would have odds to peel) but with the K 8 4 I decide to put in $20 and see what happens.

1 person calls (we'll call him passive), the villain in this hand (lets call him Tattoo from Fantasy Island) calls, the next guy (lets call him Rob R) raises to $40. Rob R is real aggressive and plays the player more than anyone else I know. I don't say this as a compliment as I have seen him do some strange things and I don't have any real read on where either he or Tattoo is. I call the additional $20 and decide I'll re-evaluate on the turn. Passive calls the additional $20.

Tattoo now raises to $60. Rob R calls,I call, as does Passive. 4 of us to the turn.

River is a 7 (not a heart). 2 checks to Tattoo, who leads out, Rob R raises to $80 and its my action. Both of these players are capable of putting in a lot of money with less of a hand than most and try to take down pots through betting rather than having the winning hand. The other player in the hand (Passive) is unknown to me and still to act behind me. I don't think I'm ahead but there is already a decent pot going and I'm real confident that I'll win if a K or a 7 comes off on the end. There's a small chance that someone has a set of eights but i think it to be unlikely given the preflop action.

I call the $80, as does passive. Tattoo raises to $120. Rob R (who just made it $80) now folds for one additional bet (?). Again he probably had absolutely nothing and decided that he couldn't buy this pot.

I call, as does Passive.

River is another 7 (not a heart) giving me sevens full. Despite the size of the pot I decide to check (I'm confident Tattoo will bet). Passive checks, Tattoo bets, I think for about 2 seconds and raise to $80. Passive folds (later saying he had the nut flush draw) and Tattoo calls. I show sevens full and win the pot.

Tattoo had 5 6 (for the straight on the turn). So this means he had a gutshot on the flop when he made it $60.

Any and all comments appreciated.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

Stop posting results in OP. They bias posters.

I think every street is well-played. Villains flop call/reraise should raise suspicions, but you are forced to call the flop bet. Against this set of villain you should have been planning to fold the turn until you made Kings-up, but once there, you should be most concerned with getting to showdown as cheaply as possible.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

Let me get this right, you called 2 bets cold on the turn because you thought you were behind but had odds to hit a K or a 7?

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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Let me get this right, you called 2 bets cold on the turn because you thought you were behind but had odds to hit a K or a 7?

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I think I'm ahead enough to call down 3 bets in a big pot, but I want to get to showdown as soon as possible given the action on the flop and both villains.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

I would only call pre-flop if it was s00ted. Otherwise, nice hand.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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I would only call pre-flop if it was s00ted. Otherwise, nice hand.

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Folding getting 15:1 is ROFL.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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Folding getting 15:1 is ROFL.

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It's only 15:1 if we stop all the betting and run 5 cards.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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Folding getting 15:1 is ROFL.

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It's only 15:1 if we stop all the betting and run 5 cards.

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This has to be the worst level in all of history. Unless you know BB is raising a large majority of the time, it's correct to call with ATC here.

EDIT: HEAD ASPLODE!

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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This has to be the worst level in all of history. Unless you know BB is raising a large majority of the time, it's correct to call with ATC here.

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I'm serious and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. Ass cards, ass position and a chance to build some table image. I fold unless I'm only facing one or maybe two loose/terrible limpers.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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This has to be the worst level in all of history. Unless you know BB is raising a large majority of the time, it's correct to call with ATC here.

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I'm serious and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. Ass cards, ass position and a chance to build some table image. I fold.

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More people on this board are calling 95o than folding K7o.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

This hand confuses me.

On the flop, I'd check and see how the action develops. If there's a bet and some callers, or a bet and a raise, then I'd just throw away my hand away (high chance of being way behind, RIO, etc...). If it checks to a LP player who bets, then we can check-raise and try to protect our hand.

As played, you are pretty much stuck calling both raises on the flop because now you are getting odds to draw to a 7, although I might still fold to the raise if you don't have the 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in your hand (meaning you could be drawing to two outs against a better K and a flush draw).

I don't understand your turn play at all. You get your dream card and get action from aggro players ("Both of these players are capable of putting in a lot of money with less of a hand than most and try to take down pots through betting rather than having the winning hand.") but then you decide that you are behind. If you really think you are behind, this is an easy fold. In the best case you've got 4 outs to boat up and you are only getting 6.5:1 (if I'm counting correctly) - even if you know that passive is going to call, you still aren't getting the 11:1 that you need. But that's the best case - if someone's got a set of 8s or K8 then you are only drawing to 2 outs (and you won't be sure which 2 you need).

Given your read, though, I'd just go ahead and 3-bet the turn. Rob didn't cap the flop so I don't think a set of 8s is likely. Tatoo's check-3-bet could easily be him screwing around with a flush draw or lower 2 pair (if he's loose enough to come in with 84s or K8s). You should charge the flush draws the max and get your money in.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

leading TPWK into 8 limpers here on the flop is standard?

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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leading TPWK into 8 limpers here on the flop is standard?

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Yes. Having this get checked through on a board with draws or having to check/call an EP better sucks. Being able to check/raise a late position better would be a god-send but there's no indication that that's going to happen.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

pre-flop and flop are terrible.

k7o, oop in a multiway pot is trouble. leading out on that flop into 7 players is also nuts. check and see what develops.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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Folding getting 15:1 is ROFL.

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It's only 15:1 if we stop all the betting and run 5 cards.

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This has to be the worst level in all of history. Unless you know BB is raising a large majority of the time, it's correct to call with ATC here.

EDIT: HEAD ASPLODE!

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are you kidding?

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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This has to be the worst level in all of history. Unless you know BB is raising a large majority of the time, it's correct to call with ATC here.

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I'm serious and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. Ass cards, ass position and a chance to build some table image. I fold.

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More people on this board are calling 95o than folding K7o.

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I would prefer to play 95o to K7o here, but would play neither. You are probably right about what most people would play, but that doesn't mean it is correct. This same topic came up I think on the Small Stakes board recently as well. Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth certainly suggest folding both hands in the SB in loose, weak games, and I really see little reason to disagree with them about playing either.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

I think it would be very helpful if everyone who responds indicates whether they play in this game regularly or not.

With a few very fast players in this game and a bunch of real bad ones if I can see any flop for $10 additional (the big blind did not have any history of raising his big blind) I would do it.

This, coupled with the fact that I've been running real hot lately made this an easy preflop call for me.

Read Sklansky, Holdem poker for Advance Players, 21st Century Edition
 

You must go for a check raise on the flop, no matter what your kicker is to get the pot heads up. Which is great advice for the flop here.

Its a good thing you totally ignored Sklansky in this case though. Be happy you have no reading comprehension.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

i play in this game regularly and I tend to call here but I'm not convinced it's good.

the flop is definitely a check and see.

if tattoo is a young quiet guy with short dark hair and tattoos on his arms I think you need to make it three bets on the turn, I would give his flop 3bet almost no credibility. this is taking your description of "Rob" at face value because I don't know who that is.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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leading TPWK into 8 limpers here on the flop is standard?

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check/call an EP better sucks.

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i would C/F an EP bettor, esp if there were callers.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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I think it would be very helpful if everyone who responds indicates whether they play in this game regularly or not.

With a few very fast players in this game and a bunch of real bad ones if I can see any flop for $10 additional (the big blind did not have any history of raising his big blind) I would do it.

This, coupled with the fact that I've been running real hot lately made this an easy preflop call for me.

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I played in this game for about 60 hours several weekends ago, but I am a regular at 20/40 live.

Stox's book says this hand is an easy call. I don't have the odds for often you flop 2-pair here and how much you can expect to extract value out of this but he does. I do know that there's no way this can be fold. Calling with ATC here is correct unless villain is raising more than 10% of the time. It's espeically more correct with a hand that can hit trips with good kicker, because the implied odds are decent. I'll grab the book when I get home from work.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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I would prefer to play 95o to K7o here, but would play neither. You are probably right about what most people would play, but that doesn't mean it is correct.

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I hate speaking for other poeple, but most players on this board who are expierenced winners in these games are calling here getting 15:1.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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leading TPWK into 8 limpers here on the flop is standard?

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check/call an EP better sucks.

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i would C/F an EP bettor, esp if there were callers.

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Getting what will amount to be 10-12:1 with 5 outs with a hand that can likely be ahead is terribly weak, tight advice. *insert Ed Miller ramble*

I'm fine with a check-raise. I feel that choice is style dependent, close, and dependent on whether you are also leading draws here(I am), but if anyone outside of late position is leading, you're going to be better off calling, so I just prefer to lead here.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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Getting what will amount to be 10-12:1 with 5 outs with a hand that can likely be ahead is terribly weak, tight advice. *insert Ed Miller ramble*

I'm fine with a check-raise. I feel that choice is style dependent, close, and dependent on whether you are also leading draws here(I am), but if anyone outside of late position is leading, you're going to be better off calling, so I just prefer to lead here.

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where do you get 5 outs from? i'm not putting an EP bettor on 84.

you have 3 outs and can easily be outdrawn if you hit. your hand = trash when faced with a bet and callers.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

For what it's worth, I'm calling 90% of my hands here in a 2/3 structure or in a half kill pot from my BB and I'll concede that folding 10% might be a small mistake. I suspect it's somewhere between break even to a small mistake in a 1/2 structure. Calling it some-big-number:1 is misleading because we end up with a trash hand out of position with 3 rounds of betting to go and you guys don't sound like you're only continuing with 2 pair or better. Too often we end up being the guy paying off the set or big draw or otherwise hitting a sexy second best.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

Rob R often drinks beer at the table, is probably in his 50s, and often where's 2 pairs of glasses at the table (one shades and one reading) which he often wears together.

He also plays 20/40 Stud, is in the room all the time, and always tries to get a 40/80 game going.

"tattoo" is a regular player who talks constantly, is bald, has tatoos on both of his upper arms, bets with two hands, knows almost everyone in the 20/40 hold'em foxwoods world, i'd guess between 28-38. and his name rhymes with GOSH.

If you don't know who these two guys are then you really can't be a regular in the game. They are as well known as Norman, Machine Gun, Hawaiian Eddie, Cabbie, Nicky, Jay, Ronnie, etc.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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Rob R often drinks beer at the table, is probably in his 50s, and often where's 2 pairs of glasses at the table (one shades and one reading) which he often wears together.

He also plays 20/40 Stud, is in the room all the time, and always tries to get a 40/80 game going.

"tattoo" is a regular player who talks constantly, is bald, has tatoos on both of his upper arms, bets with two hands, knows almost everyone in the 20/40 hold'em foxwoods world, i'd guess between 28-38. and his name rhymes with GOSH.


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That's who I thought tatto was. He also lurks here. Anyway, I'm fine with the PF call, but I would go for a c/r on the flop. That flop is getting checked through like never.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

oh wow, the turn is closer to a 3bet than a fold.

i would have paid money to see the aftermath of this hand.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

yah, i thought these guys were kidding... i'm glad somebody agrees... lol, u have better than 15:1 to flop 2 pairs...

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

i think 2 pair is 11:1...

i call any 2 getting 15:1... there's nothign that amuses more than winning w/ fugly cards... now THAT is good for my image...

what kinda "image" does someone wanna build folding 15:1?!!!

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

blahblahblah folding is probably correct preflop. it's pretty close thogh so not worth arguing about.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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oh wow, the turn is closer to a 3bet than a fold.

i would have paid money to see the aftermath of this hand.

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haha I was thinking the same thing.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

Hey Sleepyjoe, this is tattoo from fantasy island. I must say I find your fascination with only posting hands in which you beat me very interesting. I don't exactly know what you are trying to prove, but I think it lends to trying to boost your fragile ego. If you are interested in posting hands specifically that you play with me, I would be happy to play you heads-up, in order to give you a larger sample of hands to post. I will even let you have the button every hand. You let me know.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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I would be happy to play you heads-up, in order to give you a larger sample of hands to post. I will even let you have the button every hand. You let me know.

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Please god let me play you with these conditions. I'll insult you on the internet and everything if that's what it takes to play with the button every hand.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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i think 2 pair is 11:1...

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About double that.


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what kinda "image" does someone wanna build folding 15:1?!!!

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Nit. It works for me in the games I play.
Pretty much my approach to table image matches Bernie's. See his answer to Frond ( http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...0&fpart=all )

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

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I would be happy to play you heads-up, in order to give you a larger sample of hands to post. I will even let you have the button every hand. You let me know.

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Please god let me play you with these conditions. I'll insult you on the internet and everything if that's what it takes to play with the button every hand.

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me too! and i actually live close to the woods

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

its interesting that you are getting so defensive when it is clear by re-reading my original post (and all subsequent posts) that I have not said a single derogatory thing about you or your play. I described your appearance and actions (talks a lot, bets with two hands) but I have not said anything negative. You could describe me as "fat guy in red sox gear" and I'd be ok with it because its an accurate description.
I recently posted another hand (the title of the thread is "8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40"). You were not in that hand and yet I still posted it. Maybe you need to be a little less paranoid.

Apparently I don't really have it out for you. I'm just posting a hand that generated a lot of discussion.

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

Most people would be offended if you said they looked like this

http://www.madcowprod.com/fi04.jpg

Re: 8 limpers to the flop - FW 20/40
 

he has some tattoos on his arms, thus the name.

I never said he looked like him - the player in question is considerably taller and has far less hair.

and to the best of my knowledge he has never worked or lived on an island.