More Bonds
 

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Re: More Bonds
 

I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing/reading about Bonds by now, but this is a pretty good article.

The problem is that those who aren't out to crucify Bonds have already thought about a lot of this (I would assume anyway) and those who are, still won't. The Ted Williams example is spot on (might have been noted in the comments). They are both freaks.

Re: More Bonds
 

Is this article really trying to argue that Bonds didn't use steroids or did I misread it?

I mean... it's a pretty well accepted fact that Bonds used steriods...


And I think he's one of the top 2 players ever. But the guy used steroids.

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his feet grew 3 sizes and his head grew a whole hat size in his late 30s. that isnt natural, HGH obv.

case closed.

Re: More Bonds
 

Personally, I'm fine with Barry. But I don't see how you can compare Aaron and Bonds late career spikes without even mentioning the parks.

Re: More Bonds
 

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his feet grew 3 sizes and his head grew a whole hat size in his late 30s. that isnt natural, HGH obv.

case closed.

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source?

good article.

Re: More Bonds
 

A guy breaks a hallowed HR record, after having a power surge after age 35, and it is later revealed in a book that he admitted to using illegal performance enhancing drugs around the same time as his power surge.

He was hated by many throughout the country during his quest, booed viciously in other stadiums, and given a cold shoulder reception by the commissioner, the subject of snide articles in the press that proclaimed him to be the record holder in number only, but his predecessor was still the "true" home run king.

What may surprise you, however, is that I'm referring to Hank Aaron.

30 years later, the sports media revisionism tells you differently with Aaron, casting him in the role of hero this time around, while at the same time doing it all over again with Bonds.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Life goes on, and the ball still goes deep, despite what anyone writes.

Re: More Bonds
 

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I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing/reading about Bonds by now, but this is a pretty good article.

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While I don't speak for everybody, I'd rather hear about the greatest player of our era than the oh-so-exciting 6 game lead the Red Sox have over the Yankees, which makes sportscenter unwatchable (amongst other annoyances).

Re: More Bonds
 

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his feet grew 3 sizes and his head grew a whole hat size in his late 30s. that isnt natural, HGH obv.

case closed.

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source?

good article.

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I guess not.

Re: More Bonds
 

Bonds admitted to using steroids. How is this still a question?

Re: More Bonds
 

It's undeniable fact!

Re: More Bonds
 

First, the article wasn't about whether or not he used steroids.

Second, maybe I'm getting leveled but, he admitted to using amphetamines, not steroids... right? From the quotes I've read from GoS he never admits to (even unknowingly) using steroids.

Re: More Bonds
 

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his feet grew 3 sizes and his head grew a whole hat size in his late 30s. that isnt natural, HGH obv.

case closed.

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I started running in my late thirties. My shoe grew from
7 1/2 to 9. I never took drugs.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Bonds admitted to using steroids. How is this still a question?

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Um...because it isn't true.

He never admitted anything of the sort. In fact, he denied it.

Even the authors of GoS have admitted just last month that Bonds denied taking steroids in his grand jury testimony.

Somewhere along the way, folks decided that because they didn't believe him, they would just shorten the process and call it an "admission of guilt", instead of a "denial they didn't believe".

Re: More Bonds
 

i dont see why so many people hate bonds, im sure theres a pretty large portion of the league that has used steroids. Just because his numbers have been so good with steroids doesnt mean hes the only one, it just means hes the best player who ever took steroids

Re: More Bonds
 

this is a fantastic article

Re: More Bonds
 

Not really. Most of Hank's improvement came from stadium and Barry's first improvement came from the era.

Re: More Bonds
 

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i dont see why so many people hate bonds, im sure theres a pretty large portion of the league that has used steroids. Just because his numbers have been so good with steroids doesnt mean hes the only one, it just means hes the best player who ever took steroids

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This is what should be written on his HOF plaque.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Not really. Most of Hank's improvement came from stadium and Barry's first improvement came from the era.

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I think the Giants went from Candlestick to PacBell Park that year.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Bonds admitted to using steroids. How is this still a question?

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Even the authors of GoS have admitted just last month that Bonds denied taking steroids in his grand jury testimony.


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Oh snap, I didn't know that. My mistake. That is amazing then. My respect and admiration for him just shot way up because now we know that he didn't use steroids.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Not really. Most of Hank's improvement came from stadium and Barry's first improvement came from the era.

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I think the Giants went from Candlestick to PacBell Park that year.

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I meant his first improvement - from the Pirates to the Giants. Barry "improved" because it includes his age 21-24 seasons and because he joined the Giants the year the offensive explosion occurred.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Not really. Most of Hank's improvement came from stadium.

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Oddly enough, his numbers didn't improve until after his fourth season in the new park, and coincided exactly when he admitted to using illegal substances.

In his last 6 years in Mil:
Hank averaged 1 HR per 16.23 AB at ages 26-31

In his first 3 years in Atl:
Hank averaged 1 HR per 16.15 AB at age 32-34

Nearly identical. Not much of an improvement based solely on the new stadium.

Then, something happened between 1968 and 1969. Hank turned 35, and as he admitted in his own autobiography, this was when he first used illegal drugs in hopes of assisting his performance.

In the next five years after this:
Hank averaged 1 HR per 11.82 AB, from the ages 35-39.

In their dissection of late-career surge statistics as "evidence" against Bonds, SI and other sports media won't dare look at other outliers performance's with the same scrutiny. They don't cite the numerous examples of players who had similar career highs at such late ages. That wouldn't serve the agenda to villify Bonds.

In their glorification of Aaron as the anti-Bonds, the revisionist history exploits Aaron and attempts to present him as a "beloved legend", but you will never read within their pages that Aaron admitted using illegal substances in hopes of improving his performance at age 35, and then set out on an unprecedented late-career surge.

The sports media wants it to be a black/white issue, and I don't mean race, but in terms of simplicity. They want you to think in terms of Aaron being a heroic angel, and Bonds as a big bad wolf, and not look any deeper.

Because if you did, you'd start to realize they parallel each other in almost uncanny fashion.

Re: More Bonds
 

Nice post again RedBean.

Re: More Bonds
 

If you keep following the links on that blog you get some really good stuff. Especially in regards to Bonds and SI.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Then, something happened between 1968 and 1969.

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Exactly. They moved the fences in 10 feet in the alleys.

Meanwhile, at 35, Barry Bonds went to one of the worst parks for a lefty in the league.

I'm fine with Barry. Comparing their respective renaissance at 35 without mentioning the parks is silly.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Exactly. They moved the fences in 10 feet in the alleys.
Comparing their respective renaissance at 35 without mentioning the parks is silly.

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In the 5 years from age 30-34, on THE ROAD:
Hank averaged 1 HR every 19.76 AB.

In the 5 years from age 35-39, ON THE ROAD:
Hank averaged 1 HR every 14.22 AB

That's a pretty significant power increase in ROAD homers.

Do you really figure moving the fences in 10 feet in the gaps at Fulton County helped give him such a late career power surge while on the ROAD????

Re: More Bonds
 

OK, RedBean owned me re: Aaron. nice one, I just accepted conventional wisdom which is obviously bad. I never held Aaron in too high esteem though.

Still, the "progressive power" thing about Bonds is sketchy. His Pirates time is hurt by his developmental years and his 2nd period is helped by the era shift.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Still, the "progressive power" thing about Bonds is sketchy. His Pirates time is hurt by his developmental years and his 2nd period is helped by the era shift.

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Totally agree. I don't really buy that theory either, as much as it has been presented as a progression in a vacuum in the abscence of any other factors, as if Bonds could have sat on the couch each winter, clocked in and progressively hit more homeruns.

Anyone can see his late career surge in power is primarily because he lifted weights, bulked up, stayed in shape, etc.

The point of contention is whether or not the bulk, longevity, or resulting numbers is a "smoking gun" of proof of steroid use, which just isn't the case.

Suggestive, circumstantial, speculative...sure. But certainly not "proof of steroid use".

Re: More Bonds
 

whats up with aaron using illegal substances? i never heard this before. what did he use? when did he admit it?

Re: More Bonds
 

Everyone used Amphetamines back then. It's not really a big deal, but it becomes annoying when people think Bonds using steroids is a big deal when everyone now uses steroids.

Re: More Bonds
 

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In the 5 years from age 30-34, on THE ROAD:
Hank averaged 1 HR every 19.76 AB.

In the 5 years from age 35-39, ON THE ROAD:
Hank averaged 1 HR every 14.22 AB

That's a pretty significant power increase in ROAD homers.

Do you really figure moving the fences in 10 feet in the gaps at Fulton County helped give him such a late career power surge while on the ROAD????

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The fact that Connie Mack was bigger than Veterans, Forbes bigger than Three Rivers, Crosley bigger than Riverfront and two new parks filled with expansion teams all of which in the mix in that era might say something about how he did on the ROAD?!?!?!!?!?

Any data on how he did at home after the fences were moved in?

Re: More Bonds
 

So why don't we toss out both those brother's records (Bonds and Aaron), then give the record back to the true (white) owner: Babe Ruth.

[ ] Racist ban
[x] Clayton Bigsby

http://www.hjokes.com/Tnails/video/6...as%20white.jpg

Re: More Bonds
 

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whats up with aaron using illegal substances? i never heard this before. what did he use? when did he admit it?

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He admitted greenies in his book in 1991, so it's been out there for over 15 years.

Ironically, it's been mentioned in SI and other major sports media exactly ZERO times throughout all their pieces on Aaron/Bonds/PEDs....which is probably why you're just now hearing it for the first time.

Additionally, teammate Tom House detailed in his own book that himself and "almost all" the players on those 60's/70's Braves teams used steroids in addition to amphetamines and expiremented with all sorts of stuff to get an edge. He never implicated Aaron, so anything regarding substances other than amphetamines is speculation.

Re: More Bonds
 

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So why don't we toss out both those brother's records (Bonds and Aaron), then give the record back to the true (white) owner: Babe Ruth.

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Many of Ruth's peers viewed his accomplishments negatively (probably more so out of envy) because his salary afforded him the luxury of personal trainers and off-season conditioning, while many of his peers headed back home to tend the family farms to make ends meet.

As much as folklore tells you hot dogs and beer, the Bambino did put in the work in the offseason, at least during some of them, at a time when it just wasn't done, and peers even suggested it "unsportsmanlike" to employ specielized weight and conditioning training.

Other peers even suggested he not be allowed to play because he was "part-negro"....snipes of "his wide negro nose" were yesteryear's version of "Bond's big head".

Back then, being black was cheating...and in turn benefited Babe since he never had to face colored pitching.

Re: More Bonds
 

whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't intending on that getting a serious reply. Stop it Red Bean.

Re: More Bonds
 

Redbean you're one of my favorite posters, honestly. At least when dealing w/Bonds stuff [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: More Bonds
 

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The fact that Connie Mack was bigger than Veterans, Forbes bigger than Three Rivers, Crosley bigger than Riverfront and two new parks filled with expansion teams all of which in the mix in that era might say something about how he did on the ROAD?!?!?!!?!?


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Fair enough, let's see what the numbers say how he did only in the stadiums you mentioned:

In the 5 years from age 30-34, in C-Mack, Crosby, and Forbes:
Hank averaged 1 HR every 18.11 AB. (As compared to the 19.76 in all Road Games in same period)

In the 5 years from age 35-39, ON THE ROAD in C-Mack, Crosby, and Forbes: (all three closed for his 37-39 seasons)
Hank averaged 1 HR every 12.40 AB (as compared to 14.22 in all road games in same period)

In the very parks you cited, we STILL see the same surge in power after age 35. Imagine that!

Granted, moving in the fences and playing in smaller road parks definately exacerbated things, but when we isolate away from them, we STILL see there was an across the board surge in power aside from those factors post age 35.

<u>Let's recap:</u>
1. I noted the surge after age 35.
2. You disputed saying it was result of moving fences in at home park during age 35 season
3. I threw out Home numbers, and noted the same surge in ROAD numbers.
4. You disputed saying the disappearance of old, big parks at beginning of age 37 season has effect on results.
5. I threw out all road numbers from the new stadiums, and yet again, we note the same surge in ROAD numbers in the big, old parks you specifically cited.

What's next? Was the power surge a result of the Hammer switching over to first base and having less to walk between innings? Was it a result of the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1968? Perhaps the birth of Vanilla Ice that Halloween had an effect?

Surely it had to be SOMETHING right? We can't just accept that Henry had a power surge after age 35 that isn't a lone result of park factors, either road or home?

Re: More Bonds
 

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whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't intending on that getting a serious reply. Stop it Red Bean.

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No sweat man, lol... that blurb came from the "copy and paste collection". I think I originally penned that in a usenet argument back in 1996.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Bonds admitted to using steroids. How is this still a question?

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Even the authors of GoS have admitted just last month that Bonds denied taking steroids in his grand jury testimony.


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Oh snap, I didn't know that. My mistake. That is amazing then. My respect and admiration for him just shot way up because now we know that he didn't use steroids.

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so your big argument that he admitted to using steroids wasnt true, and youve decided to fall back on the "well so what, that doesnt mean he didnt use them!" argument?

youre right dude. we'll probably never be able to prove that he didn't use steroids. case closed imo.

edit: btw, knowing very little about the issue prior to reading this article, other than what is told to me by sportscenter/casual fans, this was pretty enlightening. really well put together article. i'm still not 100% convinced that he was drug-free, but i (and everyone except bonds) never will be. its enough for me to know that its possible that he didnt, to sort of accept the fact that, ya know, a great player with a tremendous work ethic broke a record. and maybe thats all there is to it.

Re: More Bonds
 

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Then, something happened between 1968 and 1969. Hank turned 35, and as he admitted in his own autobiography, this was when he first used illegal drugs in hopes of assisting his performance.

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What about the lowered the pitcher's mound that same offseason? How does that play into things?