$2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

this is the 2nd hand of the heads up. opponent has very good sharkscope stats but I and a few others who have played him agree he is actually a pretty weak opponent...anyways

the first hand i just mucked to his raise, the 2nd hand i have 88 and i have the button...blinds are 15-30

i call, he makes it 90, and i choose to call. the flop is 8 9 Q all of spades - sry not converter right now. he bets 120 and i decide to call and get it in on a blank turn increasing my equity vs. a powerful draw and also to make it look like i could be making a move with a draw, if a scare card peels off i can control the pot and also look to boat up on the river before i invest many more chips......anyways, the turn is a 4 of hearts, the perfect brick for my hand, he bets 240 and i shove.......

how's my line?

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

A lot of scare cards can hit, making him bluff you OOP. You are creating tough situations by not trying to get in on the flop. Also, you run the risk of him checking behind on the turn. Anyway, there is too much downswing to that play for it being profitable, I think. I don't play that big stakes, so my reasoning might be too simplistic.

But I get your point of trying to disguise your hand, but I would prefer to do it in position.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

wait a second, i had the button, cuz he was first to bet after the flop.....my fault

i raise 88 on the button probably 95% of the time but he likes to shove with many different hands and the 2nd hand of the HU id rather see a cheaper flop and the best scenario would be to hit a set of course, so by calling preflop i can mix up my play

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Oh, sorry - I didn't see you limp called preflop.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Yeah, then I guess I like it at this level where you have to mix up your play.

Nice play.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Waiting til the turn to raise doesn't look like a draw to me, it looks more like a monster, the opposite of the image you want to project. I reraise pf and raise the flop.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

preflop can go either way, i chose to call, especially against this opponent who is going to be pushing a wider range of hands than normal, i dont mind seeing a flop in position with 88

also, what exact monster does it look like? u think most sets are giving a free card on this board, i think of set of 8's is that last type of hand that he would put me on, as giving a cheap card with that board is pretty dangerous, something i chose to do to disguise my hand

the only monster on this board is a flopped flush, i think raising the flop will get him off many hands that will pay me off on later streets

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

people are limping pf with 88 and calling with sets on super duper drawy flops? man i need to move up to the $2,200s.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
people are limping pf with 88 and calling with sets on super duper drawy flops? man i need to move up to the $2,200s.

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lol i was waiting for some MINDLESS and retarded remark -- and i got it

i called knowing he is going to raise 90% of the time OOP which there is nothing wrong with, mixing up play is fine HU, there is no ABC form.....

i called the flop to see a blank turn and therefore increase my equity vs a combo draw and get it in, if not then i can control the pot and possibly boat up on the river to win a huge pot...

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
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people are limping pf with 88 and calling with sets on super duper drawy flops? man i need to move up to the $2,200s.

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lol i was waiting for some MINDLESS and retarded remark -- and i got it

i called knowing he is going to raise 90% of the time OOP which there is nothing wrong with, mixing up play is fine HU, there is no ABC form.....

i called the flop to see a blank turn and therefore increase my equity vs a combo draw and get it in, if not then i can control the pot and possibly boat up on the river to win a huge pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do you do if a spade or a jack or a ten comes on the turn? As you said here, it looks like you intend to call a potsized bet and turn your hand into a draw. You would risk a lot of your stack on a draw here. I would call if you are prepared to fold to a big bet on the turn. Unless you have a read that he won't make a big bet on the turn so that you can check behind here.

Your line is weird so you can expect some negative responses.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

I don't see what's so bad with limp calling if he's raising 90% of the time to limps... you increase your equity against his range I believe and have position in a bigger pot. You're going to get a ton of action on low boards and get paid off more often when you hit your set.

Anyways, as to the postflop action, I think this play is fine, you're getting your money in better when the turn bricks and you have more equity and you're going to play smaller pots when scare cards hit the turn and your equity against his range is less.

There are reads that would change your line IMO, but nothing you've said makes me think this line isn't good. A lot of players are going to lead the turn with any spade and your hand is pretty underepped up to this point.

Also, vin alluded to turn decisions on scary boards and whatnot. I'm assuming you have an edge over your opponent and feel comfortable playing against him in most spots. If you're not I wouldn't recommend such a line, but given how you feel villain plays it doesn't seem to be a bad line at all.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

i dont think you guys get it

he has a set on a drawy flop. all this talk of increasing equity is silly. he is significantly +EV against any draw. if the guy has a flush/straight so be it (still have 40% equity). these are great flops for sets. get the money in on the flop because they will pay with top pair/two pair/draws.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think you guys get it

he has a set on a drawy flop. all this talk of increasing equity is silly. he is significantly +EV against any draw. if the guy has a flush/straight so be it (still have 40% equity). these are great flops for sets. get the money in on the flop because they will pay with top pair/two pair/draws.

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He is right. A lot of scare cards can come not only for you, but also for villain. He might pay you off with top pair or two pair here, reading you for a draw, while a scare card on the turn might kill the action.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

it's not just scare cards (although that too), it's assessing if this is a flop villain will like. it hits sooo many hands that i think the answer is yes most of the time. if he doesn't like his cards on the flop, he's not going to like it on the turn and then you're not getting jack on the turn anyway.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

He pays off two pair on a non scary turn too and all those combo draws lose a ton of value and probably feel they are priced in on a missed turn where our equity is a lot > than our equity versus most of the stuff he gets it in on the flop with.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

TBH I'm not sure how I feel about this hand.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

didn't read any of the responses but i like your line, especially against this kind of villain, although at this blind level i don't think i would never l/c eights pre, but if i had i would prolly play it like this.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

ukdave32 pwns

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Also, you say it doesnt look like a monster? or its the last hand he would put you on, look at your line and tell me what hand your not trying to protect there on the turn that he would possible beat and call you with? your not getting called by just a flush draw, or even combo draws here, so he is only calling w/ a higher set, made flush, or AQ (w/ A of spades) MAYBE... I doubt it at this level... so yes, your hand does look like a monster, and you force him to only call you with hands that have you killed, personally, I really dont like this line at all and have to agree with DDBeast here... preflop, fine, whatever, but post flop, you play your hand exactly how it is, a monster thats nervous on a drawy board...

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Didnt see second page of responses, but at the 2200s, honestly, who (with a loose image as he has been described as), doesnt see this line coming from a monster, limp/call, call, shove... I REALLY doubt 2 pair is going to be super happy to get it all in on a blank turn, as the play was so obvious, flop yes, probably, but on the turn, he can't be too thrilled about his two pair, a million cards will get him off any hand he could have been hooked on on the flop, and it's just a bad line IMO, your hand is played exactly how it is, and I feel like your forcing him to only call you with hands that beat you on the turn (MAYBE getting called by top two sometimes, I guess your image comes into play here as well), but I think your forcing your opponent to play the hand / draw correctly, and seeing his image explained makes me think there are alot better ways to extract money from him than the way that you do it here.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Your hand is basically face up when played like this because you never take this line with a draw

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

This is so predictable. All this talk about mixing it up and going limp/call, call, shove makes your hand horribly obvious. Make a standard raise to 3xbb preflop and cbet. You're going to make a hand like AQ or a naked spade give you action sometimes, hands that will shut down with your crazy passive line.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

I like the play. You could play it either way (call flop/shove turn, or raise flop/all shove) and be ok here I think.
The thinking for the first option is that if he has a hand like 10K with K of spades, or some straight and flush draw type of hand, he's probably willing to get it in on the flop and you've got a race to win the tourny, which sucks. In that case, calling and shoving a blank turn is great because your odds are much greater of getting a fold, or winning an all-in against 2 pair or a big pair or draw that feels priced in or can't fold.
The problem is a hand like KsQx or some 2-pair type of hand where he's probably willing to get it all-in on the flop when you're pretty far ahead. I think this has more to do with your read on the villain and your style of play--conservative or aggro.

Here's some pokerstove calcs I did which may or may not be great since I'm new to using it:

Overal result was:
Hand 0 - 57.5% Equity (your 88)
Hand 1 - 42.5% Equity
[ QQ+,JcJs,JdJs,JhJs,AsKs,AsJs,AsTs,As7s,As6s,As5s,A s4s,
As3s,As2s,KJs-KTs,Ks7s,Ks6s,Ks5s,Ks4s,Ks3s,Ks2s,JTs,Js7s,
Ts7s,7s6s,7s5s,6s5s,5s4s,4s3s,3s2s,AcQd,AcQh,AdQc, AdQh,AhQc
,AhQd,AsQc,AsQd,AsQh,As9c,As9d,As9h,As8c,As8d,As8h ,KsQc,
KsQd,KsQh,KsJc,KsJd,KsJh,KsTc,KsTd,KsTh,QcJs,QdJs, QhJs,
QcTs,QdTs,QhTs,Qc9d,Qc9h,Qd9c,Qd9h,Qh9c,Qh9d,Qs9c, Qs9d,
Qs9h,Qc8d,Qc8h,Qd8c,Qd8h,Qh8c,Qh8d,Qs8c,Qs8d,Qs8h, JcTs,
JdTc,JdTs,JhTc,JhTd,JhTs,JsTc,JsTd,JsTh,98o]

I figured any two semi-reasonable suited cards assuming he's very aggro, any QQ+, any set obv, any JsJx which may be somewhat loose. I also threw in a bunch of combo draws and any 2 pair.

I don't really think the way you played your hand is so "omg obv" as some have said. I agree that you're usually not getting called here when you shove except by a hand that beats you, but what are the options? Call/fold river? Fold turn? That's just so weak. If he was betting a draw you win the pot on the turn, if he has you beat, it's unlikely you would be able to fold a set here anyway. I'm getting it in and liking my odds.

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is so predictable. All this talk about mixing it up and going limp/call, call, shove makes your hand horribly obvious. Make a standard raise to 3xbb preflop and cbet. You're going to make a hand like AQ or a naked spade give you action sometimes, hands that will shut down with your crazy passive line.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, ok so of all the people in this thread that NEVER limp call with 88 in position, then how the hell is it horribly obvious if i do it, but nobody else ever does it?

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is basically face up when played like this because you never take this line with a draw

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say i took this line with AQ with A spades, is this not a draw?

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

he is calling a shove on the turn with AQ with A of spades instantly im sure of..

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

also by raising the flop, i think im getting MANY hands to fold that would normally pay me off with another bet on the turn...for instance, AA, KK, TT with no spades..those type of hands...then shoving on the turn of course he is only gonna call with most hands that have me beat, and some that dont like AQ with A of spades, but i got another 200+ chips from the turn bet and he could easily put me on a draw after my flop call....

its not only about getting paid off by hands that have good draws, but getting paid by hands that have little or no equity against my hand but are most likely (and against this opponent even more likely) that he will fire another bullet on the turn

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

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people are limping pf with 88 and calling with sets on super duper drawy flops? man i need to move up to the $2,200s.

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lol i was waiting for some MINDLESS and retarded remark -- and i got it

i called knowing he is going to raise 90% of the time OOP which there is nothing wrong with, mixing up play is fine HU, there is no ABC form.....

i called the flop to see a blank turn and therefore increase my equity vs a combo draw and get it in, if not then i can control the pot and possibly boat up on the river to win a huge pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do you do if a spade or a jack or a ten comes on the turn? As you said here, it looks like you intend to call a potsized bet and turn your hand into a draw. You would risk a lot of your stack on a draw here. I would call if you are prepared to fold to a big bet on the turn. Unless you have a read that he won't make a big bet on the turn so that you can check behind here.

Your line is weird so you can expect some negative responses.

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if a spade or a J roll off that doesnt mean hes betting this hand, so it is also likely that he shuts down on the turn with that type of scare card, giving me a possible free card, if he bets then i make a decision depending on the amount that he bets and go from there, if its too much when a J of spades his the turn then i fold and move on, only losing 200 chips and still in easy contention to win this match

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

its an ok line IMO but probably shouldnt make it your standard one though and how does limping 88 make your hand obvious lol?

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

this is definately not a standard play by me by any means, just a different line i took and wanted some thoughts about i

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

lol... can we get some other higher limit players to comment on this? Camel if your ever around, BCM, cwar, whoever else reads this forum and has enough experience at higher stakes. Also, to dentist... the point is, that on the flop you are going to get a ton of action from a loose player with hands that you are beating... i.e. forcing him to draw unprofitably... +EV for you, and although he did fire the turn again, sure, you made some extra chips out of it, but it seems like your no longer protecting your hand against draws here, it might as well be a total bluff since ONE and only ONE of all the possible calling hands he has you are beating, I feel that you should take a less conservative line here when your obviously getting the best of a loose player, and let him put his money in on a range you are obviously way ahead of...

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol... can we get some other higher limit players to comment on this? Camel if your ever around, BCM, cwar, whoever else reads this forum and has enough experience at higher stakes. Also, to dentist... the point is, that on the flop you are going to get a ton of action from a loose player with hands that you are beating... i.e. forcing him to draw unprofitably... +EV for you, and although he did fire the turn again, sure, you made some extra chips out of it, but it seems like your no longer protecting your hand against draws here, it might as well be a total bluff since ONE and only ONE of all the possible calling hands he has you are beating, I feel that you should take a less conservative line here when your obviously getting the best of a loose player, and let him put his money in on a range you are obviously way ahead of...

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i completely understand what u are saying, and i'm not saying its wrong either, i know raising here is perfectly fine, i am just justifying taking a line like the one i took..and he is loose aggressive, but not retarded, i think a bluff or a semi-bluff from him are much more likely here and im happy to call the flop and make a decision on the turn, no not everytime, but i dont see how my play is so -EV

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

haha, well were you asking if it was -EV or if it was maximum EV, I understand its not WRONG to do what you did, and you'll make chips because of his tendencies to bluff... but you allow him to play it perfectly, he has no option but to fold his weaker hand, or call you with a better one, plain and simple, so I am saying you did NOT get maximum EV out of this hand, if all you wanted was confirmation that it wasnt -EV, then yes... you are correct [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

i think there are some things people are confusing. there are a couple ways of looking at this.

one is your range of hands versus his range of hands. this is the stuff you can poker stove.

on the other hand, you can also look at your probable actions versus his probable actions. viewing it this way, it doesn't matter as much what he has as what he is planning to do

and lastly, you can look at his probable actions with his range versus your probable actions with your range. this type of analysis is tough and dependent on . . .

if a scare card hits, say a J, T or spade, how often will you call a turn? how often will he fire the river as a bluff? how often will you call the river?

if a nonscare card hits on the turn, how often will he fire?

i really don't agree with how you played the hand unless he has very different frequencies for bluffing the turn as for bluffing the river (also for calling the flop as for calling the turn).

why? because you slowplayed the turn figuring you could get a bet out of him if he missed.

if you call the turn, he has about a psb left. he's not hitting the river significantly more than he hit the turn, so if you thought it was profitable to slowplay the flop then you should have just called the turn, slowplaying there as well

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
haha, well were you asking if it was -EV or if it was maximum EV, I understand its not WRONG to do what you did, and you'll make chips because of his tendencies to bluff... but you allow him to play it perfectly, he has no option but to fold his weaker hand, or call you with a better one, plain and simple, so I am saying you did NOT get maximum EV out of this hand, if all you wanted was confirmation that it wasnt -EV, then yes... you are correct [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends on his range to decide on whether i got maximum EV out of this hand..not on instantly assuming that he is on a draw

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

my hand vs his range regardless of what i do is +EV, but the decision i make on the flop and turn can change that

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

i slowplayed the flop to greatly increase my equity vs a combo draw that would be shoving the flop, when the turn misses, i can now get it all in vs many very strong drawing hands that he calls, as u can see by ryans equity calculations vs his range i am only 57-43 on the flop, i wanted to peel a turn to greatly increase that because i feel my edge is greater than that

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

how if i raise the flop, he is not shoving anything that is worse than 60-40, and im not gonna take that the second hand of a heads up vs. a very weak opponent

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

60-40 in a 2200? ummm, isn't that wayyyyyyyyyy higher than any ROI or winrate you'll achieve at those limits? shouldnt you be taking that in a heartbeat at anything over the 550s, where a 5% ROI is VERY substantial... (i.e. the camel, stevesbets, etc.) all have about 4-5% ROI I believe (HU turbos)

Re: $2200 HU turbo SNG full tilt
 

Uh, 60% winrate is more than 5% ROI unless I'm retarded.

And a 60-40 should be taken at every level including the 6s. If you pass up on them you're an idiot, period.

(Not directed at anybody in particular)