Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 (t820)
MP2 (t525)
MP3 (t1130)
CO (t770)
Button (t910)
SB (t710)
BB (t770)
UTG (t835)
Hero (t775)
UTG+2 (t755)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t57.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t57.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t15</font>, BB calls t15, UTG folds, Hero calls t15.

River: (t102.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t15</font>, BB calls t15, Hero calls t15.

Final Pot: t147.50

Results below:
SB has Qh Jc (one pair, jacks).
BB has 6c 8d (one pair, sixes).
Hero has Td Th (one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB wins t147.50.


Bet correctly, or was there a need for a raise? (in spite of the results - I've seen far worse hands show up here)

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

I raise pre-flop. But since you didn't, I bet the flop for sure. It's quite likely you have the best hand.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

What level was this at?

The problem is that your play gives no idea where you are in the hand. I bet the flop for 40 - 50, fold to a re-raise. Given you didn't bet the flop, I raise the turn (he could be betting any card on that board).

You need information, and you didn't make any moves to obtain it.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Where is the WA/WB police?

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What level was this at?

The problem is that your play gives no idea where you are in the hand. I bet the flop for 40 - 50, fold to a re-raise. Given you didn't bet the flop, I raise the turn (he could be betting any card on that board).

You need information, and you didn't make any moves to obtain it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

If anyone could provide a link to thread(s) about WA/WB play (how to identify it and how to proceed) it would be appreciated. To me, unless I'm on a strong draw, I'm always WA/WB!

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Just in general terms, I'd be happy to win a small pot. I wouldn't want to lose much of my stack here.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Correct betting by the SB? No.

Correct calling by you? Eh, no.

I don't mind preflop or the flop, but I think you need to put in a raise on the turn. Raise to 60/75 or something - this will give you a lot of information.

Then you can call or check behind on the river depending what happnes.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

I think you played it fine.

The only thing I would have done different is probably bet the flop, but after that, there's still a good chance your tens are ahead and you're getting good odds to call.

You kept the pot small and lost it. No biggie.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Any overcard, diamond, or medium card and your TT may no longer be ahead. With this many opponents you certainly are not WA. OTOH, you may be way behind if someone has a J. Given the anemic action on the flop, i think a bet is proper to try to take it down now or at least thin the field to give yourself some chance of winning this.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

I'm pretty sure it's not terrible to either play weakly here and check/fold to reasonable bets at any point or to take a stab at the flop.

Folding to the tiny bets would be bad IMHO.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

With just one non-Ace overcard, this is a very easy bet on the flop.

You are likely to have the best hand, but it is his highly vulnerable (you are NOT way ahead), so you should be eager to bet.

If called, then just try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, and fold to significant heat.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

i'll be the Wa/Wb police here. i feel like i've typed this alot lately, but here i go again....

if you're ahead betting/raising is the correct play. if your behind folding is the correct play. players often call as a compromise between the two. calling isn't the correct play in either situation. it is better to choose one of the options that can be potentailly correct than to choose the option that is almost certainly incorrect.

i would raise preflop. reasonable chance that the QJ folds. you were actually in postion on the flop and it was checked to you.... gotta stick in a bet there. if you get reraised you can evaluate from there.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Thanks. Well said.

I will add:

Calling also leaves you with the same uncertainty on the next street.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

In this hand, as has been pointed out, you are not really Wa/Wb because you are vulnerable when ahead.

When you are really Wa/Wb there are certainly benefits to calling down. You catch bluffs from the Wb hands and can lose less from the Wa hands. When you are quite possibly behind, but can't fold because of the size of the post, and have very little FE, I think calling down is also good.

I tend to play more like you are talking about and try to take down pots when I think I'm ahead or check/fold if I think I'm behind, but I do think compromise can be correct.

Unarmed?

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Let's put this to a hypothetical:

You are holding AKo and the flop is KTT. For some reason you have narrowed down his holdings to either a ten or a weaker K with equivalent probablility.

How do you play if you are first to act?

How do you play if he is and 1/2 pots it? checks to you?

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

I don't really know and I don't think you can figure it out just by reasoning it because you don't know how villian will react. Will villian's reraise mean he has the ten or not? Will villian bet the weaker king at you? How slowly will villian play the T if you check?

If you know villian well enough it's easy, but knowing them that well is all but impossible.

On average, this looks like you lose less and win more if you check/call with the possibility of check/folding if the pot is small and villian makes you think the T is more likely. It's not that you can't be making a mistake this way, but it seems like the potential mistakes of betting out (folding the weak K or getting bluffed off by a reraise) are worse.

There are other factors of course. The pot size compared to our stacks will be relevant and how close we are to the bubble will have a big effect too. For example, if I'm 2nd stack, he's big stack, and there are two shorties around, there's no way I'm taking big risks here.

Anyway, I haven't quite gotten through thinking about this, but I'll have to post it as I've got to go. Hope I didn't say anything too stupid.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

Make it T60 preflop unless the table is loose/passive. I don't mind limping here against a table full of calling stations, with an eye on doubling through a TPTK sort of hand with a set. Checked around on the flop, you probably have the best hand and should bet.

Re: Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?
 

I'd bet the flop. Otherwise, I like it.