Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Is it legal? Assume that you have 2-3 balls left and the cue ball is close to the pocket in such a way that you have no shot. Is it legal to scratch?

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Sure. What happens next depends on the rules you're playing, but I often play ball in hand, so this type of choice is punished severely.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

It depends on the house rules. Generally, a scratch is ball in hand and happens if you hit the ball in the pocket or don't hit one of your object balls first.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

right this is why you must play ball in hand, otherwise scratching on purpose becomes too much of an advantage.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

A lot of people play that scratching on the 8-ball is loss, however, under the world standardized 8-ball rules, you only lose if you pocket the 8-ball and foul the shot.

So, if you just scratch when you're down to the 8-ball, it is just a normal foul and your opponent gets to take the cue ball in hand. If you scratch AND pocket the 8-ball, you lose.

SpaceAce

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

What happened was this: I had 2-3 balls left with no shot. My opponent had just the 8-ball left, but it was close to the rail on the other side of the table. Well within the mark where you cannot pass for ball in hand. So essentially, his only shot was shoot across the table (longways), hit one or more rails and pocket the 8-ball.

Now I've always played where you can purposely scratch... it's a defense move. Especially if you have no shot or an impossible shot leaving you in a bad position. He said it was illegal. Based on the additional information, what is your ruling? Legal or illegal?

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Legal, except for the fact that there is no "mark" that he can't take the ball behind; that rule only applies on the break. If you foul, he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

SpaceAce

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

rowdy,

If these types of situations come up a lot within the rules you and your friends play with, i'd just get really good at kicking off the end rail. People used to try this [censored] against me and its incredible sweet to let them try this bs and still make the ball.

That, and just play ball in hand. Anything else makes baby jesus cry (and contributes to this same idea being rehashed here every few months).

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

I was playing in a 8-ball tourny at Hardtimes in Bellflower a few years ago, and an unusual situation came up. They played ball-in-hand, and have the 3 scratches rule (if you scratch on 3 consecutive shots, you lose).

Player A had scratched twice, and had only one object ball left. His object ball (OB) was near the rail, covered on all 3 sides by Player B's OBs. Player B's shot.

Player B intentionally scratched, leave A with ball in hand. However, given the setup, there was no way for A to even TOUCH his ball. He just conceded the match at that point.

Josh

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Why don't you hook him (put the cue ball behind one/several of yours so he has no shot)?

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

There's also some rules (so that's what this is all dependant on) where you must strike your object ball and either the cue ball or the object ball MUST hit a rail or you must make a ball legally.

That keeps people from just "hooking" or "snookering" their opponent.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing in a 8-ball tourny at Hardtimes in Bellflower a few years ago, and an unusual situation came up. They played ball-in-hand, and have the 3 scratches rule (if you scratch on 3 consecutive shots, you lose).

Player A had scratched twice, and had only one object ball left. His object ball (OB) was near the rail, covered on all 3 sides by Player B's OBs. Player B's shot.

Player B intentionally scratched, leave A with ball in hand. However, given the setup, there was no way for A to even TOUCH his ball. He just conceded the match at that point.

Josh

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never played 3 fouls in 8 ball, just 9 ball...but at very least the guy could have tried to jump and skim it...

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing in a 8-ball tourny at Hardtimes in Bellflower a few years ago, and an unusual situation came up. They played ball-in-hand, and have the 3 scratches rule (if you scratch on 3 consecutive shots, you lose).

Player A had scratched twice, and had only one object ball left. His object ball (OB) was near the rail, covered on all 3 sides by Player B's OBs. Player B's shot.

Player B intentionally scratched, leave A with ball in hand. However, given the setup, there was no way for A to even TOUCH his ball. He just conceded the match at that point.

Josh

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why there is typically no 3 foul rule in 8 ball.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing in a 8-ball tourny at Hardtimes in Bellflower a few years ago, and an unusual situation came up. They played ball-in-hand, and have the 3 scratches rule (if you scratch on 3 consecutive shots, you lose).

Player A had scratched twice, and had only one object ball left. His object ball (OB) was near the rail, covered on all 3 sides by Player B's OBs. Player B's shot.

Player B intentionally scratched, leave A with ball in hand. However, given the setup, there was no way for A to even TOUCH his ball. He just conceded the match at that point.

Josh

[/ QUOTE ]

I have done this several times to people in 9-ball, but have never seen a 3-foul rule in 8-ball.

The only version of a "3-foul" rule in 8-ball I have seen was in a tournament when my opponent run down to the eight, missed it and hung it deep within the pocket. I had 3 balls right by that 8 that I could not pocket anywhere, even with ball-in-hand. So I proceeded to nudge my balls closer to the eight while leaving him no clear shot to the hanging eight. So he just kept giving me ball-in-hand without trying a crazy shot and I just kept nudging those 3 balls closer and eventually touching the 8-ball until he had zero chance to legally pocket it. So we reached a stalemate where neither of us would try to move those balls. The tournament director had to come over and declared that "after 3 consecutive shots by each player in which no attempt is made to pocket a ball or advance the game, the game is reracked and replayed". I have played competitive pool for a long time and have never seen that happen before.

And to the OP question of whether that was legal or not, those rules you are talking about only apply in bars, and every bar and town has different versions. That's why bar pool starts so many fights (aside from the booze), because there is no standard set of rules. In real 8-ball rules you can scratch on purpose if you want, but he gets ball-in-hand ANYWHERE on the table, so you basically lose the game. I know in many bars "ball-in-hand" is on the headstring and you cannot shoot backwards, only uptable, but that rule only applies on a scratch on the break in real pool rules.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

The only discrepancy here is whether you're playing bar or league rules. In most bar rules, you don't get ball in hand when your opponent scratches. In any game, it's legal to intentionally scratch. In bar pool, you won't get punished as badly for scratching, as the opponent has to hit from behind the spot. But in league rules, there are very few instances where an intentional scratch won't [censored] you (although they do come up).

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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the cue ball is close to the pocket in such a way that you have no shot.

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I assume you have no blocking safety shot you can make either?

Of course you can scratch- but if it's ball in hand, don't you autolose, in effect?

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

IF you don't get ball in hand, as is the case in most bars I've played in, THEN scratching on purpose is a dick move and likely to get you punched. At least if in the midwest where people get really feisty about bar pool.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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IF you don't get ball in hand, as is the case in most bars I've played in, THEN scratching on purpose is a dick move and likely to get you punched. At least if in the midwest where people get really feisty about bar pool.

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Yeah, this was my impression of the situation. Even if you don't get punched, people are going to give you a lot of [censored] and you probably won't really be welcome.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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In bar pool, you won't get punished as badly for scratching, as the opponent has to hit from behind the spot.

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won't get punished as badly? it's actually a HUGE ADVANTAGE depending on the table situation

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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In bar pool, you won't get punished as badly for scratching, as the opponent has to hit from behind the spot.

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won't get punished as badly? it's actually a HUGE ADVANTAGE depending on the table situation

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Yeah, I know. I wasn't referring to scratching on purpose, just scratching in general.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Thanks for the replies guys! I was too wasted to really think of making a safety shot, so I just scratched. I thought, for bar games, that it was ball in hand behind the "mark." Not ball in hand for the entire table. In that case, yes, I can see how silly it is to purposely scratch if s/he has just the 8-ball left.

And yes, it was in the Midwest. =)

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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Legal, except for the fact that there is no "mark" that he can't take the ball behind; that rule only applies on the break. If you foul, he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

SpaceAce

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Space Ace is right, but professional American tournaments do not operate under these rules generally. I believe they stick with ball in hand as they do in 9-ball.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Here's one for you.

Say you're getting killed and have a ton of balls left. You happen to have a clean shot on the 8 ball. Bet your oppenent that he won't get to shoot again this rack. Pocket the 8 ball, take the loss, and win the bet.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In bar pool, you won't get punished as badly for scratching, as the opponent has to hit from behind the spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

won't get punished as badly? it's actually a HUGE ADVANTAGE depending on the table situation

[/ QUOTE ]

? Its a huge advantage that you MUST hit it from behind the line and not from anywhere on the table that you would like. Which would also include behind the line but also all other posibilities.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Legal, except for the fact that there is no "mark" that he can't take the ball behind; that rule only applies on the break. If you foul, he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

SpaceAce

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Space Ace is right, but professional American tournaments do not operate under these rules generally. I believe they stick with ball in hand as they do in 9-ball.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the major leagues in the US - BCA, APA, ACS, TAP, Vally, all use ball in hand on fouls. The only time its not ball in hand is if you scratch on the break. This prevents the situation you were in. It also promotes defensive shots which were frowned on by your typical "bar" players who don't play leagues. It also will stop the BS plays of players "tapping" the cue ball only an inch instead of going for a proper hit (your object ball and getting a rail after the hit)I have seen more then one fight over someone playing a defensive shot in a game. I see the most fights over someones quarters placed on the table for the next game.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's one for you.

Say you're getting killed and have a ton of balls left. You happen to have a clean shot on the 8 ball. Bet your oppenent that he won't get to shoot again this rack. Pocket the 8 ball, take the loss, and win the bet.

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Correct call, but good luck getting paid. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

I'm not talking bar league pool, I'm talking bar drunk dumbasses around the table pool. You can take a defensive shot, but you better pretend you're really shooting at something.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

Play ball in hand or don't play.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

You play by the bar rules or don't play.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

I wouldn't play 8-ball without a signed contract, in advance, agreeing to every possible ruling.

I once had a guy tell me "You lose! You didn't call 'bank shot'!" when I made a simple, straight in shot on the 8. It was near the rail, about two diamonds away from the pocket. It made contact with that rail on its way in.

That was 20 years ago. I haven't played 8-ball since.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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I'm not talking bar league pool, I'm talking bar drunk dumbasses around the table pool. You can take a defensive shot, but you better pretend you're really shooting at something.

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Thats why playing this kinda bullshiit leads to horrid pool, usually by horrid players, and fights. I havent been that horrid in over 20 years. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play 8-ball without a signed contract, in advance, agreeing to every possible ruling.

I once had a guy tell me "You lose! You didn't call 'bank shot'!" when I made a simple, straight in shot on the 8. It was near the rail, about two diamonds away from the pocket. It made contact with that rail on its way in.

That was 20 years ago. I haven't played 8-ball since.

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Played a guy like that once, he also said that because when I called a shot, and made it that it didnt count, because I made his ball at the time...fking retard.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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You play by the bar rules or don't play.

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I have seen one time where a bar had rules on the wall, they were mainly to avoid masse shots, and not to gamble.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

This is why I always ask if were playing ball in hand or the 'kitchen' line or whatever. My friends and I never play seriously and never play ball in hand, however, I play with some other people that play league and they play ball in hand. Its just best to know what rules you're playing before hand, never hurts to ask.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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In bar pool, you won't get punished as badly for scratching, as the opponent has to hit from behind the spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

won't get punished as badly? it's actually a HUGE ADVANTAGE depending on the table situation

[/ QUOTE ]

? Its a huge advantage that you MUST hit it from behind the line and not from anywhere on the table that you would like. Which would also include behind the line but also all other posibilities.

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Exactly. He's saying it's a huge advantage for the person who scratched intentionally.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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You play by the bar rules or don't play.

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Ok, what are bar rules? Can you provide documentation for these rules? I know this term is used as a kind of default answer, but can you actually show me a list of bar rules? Does this apply to all bars, or can it change from bar to bar? Get my point yet...the term bar rules means somethign more along the lines of "whatever we decide to play". If you wish to refer to the real rules of pool in general you can find them here.

BCA Standardized Rules

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

In every bar I've ever played (and I've played in a lot), the rules are the same as APA except:
There's no such thing as a table scratch. The only scratch is if you sink the cue ball. In that case, your opponent has to shoot from the kitchen.
There's no rule saying you have to hit a cushion if you miss your shot.

I've been in bars that say you lose if you don't touch the 8 first on your 8 shot.

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What happened was this: I had 2-3 balls left with no shot. My opponent had just the 8-ball left, but it was close to the rail on the other side of the table. Well within the mark where you cannot pass for ball in hand. So essentially, his only shot was shoot across the table (longways), hit one or more rails and pocket the 8-ball.

Now I've always played where you can purposely scratch... it's a defense move. Especially if you have no shot or an impossible shot leaving you in a bad position. He said it was illegal. Based on the additional information, what is your ruling? Legal or illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is legal, but given the circumstances you describe why wouldn't you play a safety shot instead?

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

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IF you don't get ball in hand, as is the case in most bars I've played in, THEN scratching on purpose is a dick move and likely to get you punched. At least if in the midwest where people get really feisty about bar pool.

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if most bars you've played in are anywhere near st.louis, then i don't know what to tell ya. everybody there plays ball in hand, bank the 8, last pocket, or opposite last pocket.

Barron

Re: Purposely scratching in 8-ball?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In every bar I've ever played (and I've played in a lot), the rules are the same as APA except:
There's no such thing as a table scratch. The only scratch is if you sink the cue ball. In that case, your opponent has to shoot from the kitchen.
There's no rule saying you have to hit a cushion if you miss your shot.

I've been in bars that say you lose if you don't touch the 8 first on your 8 shot .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my point, if you and I are playing a game, I will ask up front what rules do you wanna play. I usually hear "Straight in no slop" I then have to ask them again about fouls and such because they have no idea what they are talking about. If a guy is being kind of a dick, I will ask him what "straight in" means...that will make them babble for a few seconds untill i tell them that what they really mean is call your shot. I also will usually try and make it easier for them and say lets just play ball-N-pocket. Which just means to call your ball in what pocket, and who cares how it gets there. This is usually what will put them at ease...then I take there cash [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]