AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

From past experience I have found I have little folding equity on flops like these.

He either has 2 pair, set or some draw/combo looking to b3b ai.

Do I raise and fold? Just call? Do I want to felt on this flop? Half the deck is scary on the turn.

Thanks.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $55.15
BB: $49.35
UTG: $44.90
Hero (MP): $52.45
CO: $54.50
BTN: $57.65

Reads: <font color="blue">Not much. He's a typical 23/16 player.</font>

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Ah.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Ad.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $1.50, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.25) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/7s.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/5h.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/6s.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $4.00</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero??

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

Hard to tell what to do unless we can actually see the cards.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Hard to tell what to do unless we can actually see the cards.

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I've used lego converter and it's always worked for me.

If not, I have AhAd and the board is 7s6s5h.

SB leads $4 into $5. 100bb.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

Bump this thread, becuase I'd also like to know what other people would do on a hand like this. I think that sometimes with a lower pocket pair or over pair people will try to semi-bluff into this type of board and take down the pot on the flop. I would probably call and see if he fires a second barrel on the turn. But don't take my word for that.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

That's a pretty scary bet, since he's OOP and has two behind.

From his preflop call we can deduce he has something like Axs, and a mid-PP up to TT, since it is likely he'll raise JJ+.

vs. any set on that flop, you're about an 85% underdog.
vs. something like A8ss, you're a 60/40 underdog
vs. 88, you're a 60/40 favorite.
vs. AQss, you're a 60/40 favorite.

I don't see what other hands he would do this with. I might call the flop and see what he does on the turn. Any other connecting cards/ near PSB on the turn and I'd probably fold.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

villian never has a set here. hardly ever. i don't want to fold this

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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villian never has a set here. hardly ever. i don't want to fold this

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I think a set/two pair is def in his range. Why shouldn't he lead the flop with a set on that drawy board? But this could also be a semi-bluff very often.
Depending on your read and how agressive villain is I'd raise and fold to a shove here but maybe thats a leak.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

I am definately raising and folding to a shove, I would expect to see 2pair/set very often if we get it all in on the flop.

If he calls I am checking behind on the river and possibly calling a river bet.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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villian never has a set here. hardly ever. i don't want to fold this

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I think a set/two pair is def in his range. Why shouldn't he lead the flop with a set on that drawy board? But this could also be a semi-bluff very often.
Depending on your read and how agressive villain is I'd raise and fold to a shove here but maybe thats a leak.

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villians at this level won't lead sets often, in my experience. i don't know if i like raising and folding to a shove that much either, b/c it seems like that line wins the least from hands we beat, and we still fold the best hand some of the time, as combo draws are probably willing to get all in here as well as 2 pair/set type hands

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

Actually...there was a good thread a week or so ago about why calling here and being aggressive on the turn is a good move because any equity he has with a combo draw shrinks significantly after the turn bricks.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Actually...there was a good thread a week or so ago about why calling here and being aggressive on the turn is a good move because any equity he has with a combo draw shrinks significantly after the turn bricks.

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Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Anyone have a link to that btw?

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

Agreed on raising flop and folding to a shove.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Agreed on raising flop and folding to a shove.

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this is worse than open folding

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Agreed on raising flop and folding to a shove.

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this is worse than open folding

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Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Agreed on raising flop and folding to a shove.

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this is worse than open folding

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So what is the best line here then? Call and bet save turn? I don't like shoving here unless I have a read that villain plays draws/combos very aggressive.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

bump

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Actually...there was a good thread a week or so ago about why calling here and being aggressive on the turn is a good move because any equity he has with a combo draw shrinks significantly after the turn bricks.

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a link to this would be great

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

This is a situation where it really would be helpful to have some read on villain. But since none was provided I would err on the side of caution because his line he is taking is really strong. By leading into two opponents, one of which is the preflop raiser, it looks like he is trying to build a big pot with either a big hand or a big draw. Him leading the flop would make sense with these holdings because he can trap dead money in by leading into the BB and hoping he calls as opposed to check raising the OP's bet which would most likely force the BB out of the hand. For this type of opponent, I'd say that the following range is likely (44-99, AsXs, 56s, 67s, 78s, 89s). I included 44, 88, and 99 in this players range just to include a few hands he may be making a move with. I didn't include all AsXs hands, but more like As8s, AsJs, AsQs, and AsKs. Anyway, if you agree with this range the OP's equity is only around 40%. So this looks like it would suggest that calling and reevaluating on the turn would be the best play. Calling could have the added benefit of freezing the SB up on the turn if he is in fact on a draw and misses. But if he is leading the turn again with a substantial bet I'm probably letting the Aces go.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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Actually...there was a good thread a week or so ago about why calling here and being aggressive on the turn is a good move because any equity he has with a combo draw shrinks significantly after the turn bricks.

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a link to this would be great

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yeah definitely a good move if he always plays his combo draws aggro on the turn and is willing to get it in.

oh wait, yea that thinkings flawed too.

I like calling and think raising kinda sucks.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

That is one nasty flop for AA. And villain donks into two people. I like a call, I am not trying to play a big pot here. If villain fires again I probably dump it and if he checks I probably bet.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

I raise to $15 or so... He will more often be semibluffing or put you on a hand like AK/AQ and take a shot at this with top pair. You can take it down. If he's on a big hand he'll have to let you know now it's still affordable. Calling will only make the pot bigger and future mistakes more expensive.
If he's not very bluffy/agressive you can also just call and bet the turn if he checks, even when a spade comes, and fold if he bets. If he flopped a made hand it'll be hard for him to call and if he just made his hand he probably won't suddenly check. But I like raising a lot better against almost all opponents.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

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I raise to $15 or so... He will more often be semibluffing or put you on a hand like AK/AQ and take a shot at this with top pair. You can take it down. If he's on a big hand he'll have to let you know now it's still affordable. Calling will only make the pot bigger and future mistakes more expensive.
If he's not very bluffy/agressive you can also just call and bet the turn if he checks, even when a spade comes, and fold if he bets. If he flopped a made hand it'll be hard for him to call and if he just made his hand he probably won't suddenly check. But I like raising a lot better against almost all opponents.

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So what do you do if he pushes? Leaving that out makes the whole post kind of redundant. When we raise this is a push or fold situation for villain. I think if we raise we have priced us in vs a range of mostly draws and stuff that beat us so we can´t really fold anymore. There are many spots where this is good strategy, do you think this is one of them?

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

I would shut down to action, because a push will mean he often has set, two pair, a flopped straight or a combo draw. We are badly losing and at least breaking even against all of these. If he pushes we are getting a little better than 2-1. I think we are to to far behind his pushing range to say we have enough equity.

I just think we take down $9.25 by risking $15 more than 60% of the time, making the raise itself at least breakeven.

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

I think calling the flop and re-evaluating the turn allows villian the chance to make the mistakes here. A bricked turn takes a HUGE chunk of his equity, even if he's on a big combo draw. Seeing a turn also allows you to pick up more outs if you are in fact up against two pair as well as gives you the opportunity to turn your aces into a bluff if the board gets even scarier and villian shuts down. Donking into a preflop raiser with a low connected board is something that I like to do, as it often takes down the pot against AK type hands.

Call flop and re-evaluate the turn. A bricked turn puts villian in a world of hurt if he's on a combo draw and will allow HIM to make the mistake, rather than you. Any thoughts on this?

Re: AA gets donked on drawy flop
 

idontlikeyou: Against a passive I sometimes like this, but against most players I prefer a raise. You are right about villains equity on combo draws, but I don't see why to put him specifically on a combo draw. Besides villain will just check/fold or check/call if he gets the odds on this turn when he is drawing. I think there are a lot more normal draws villain could be donking with than combo draws. We like to make them pay or fold. I also think villain might have two pair or trips and we'd like to find out before the pot is to big to do so. What is your plan when he leads the turn?