30/60 QTs
 

In an amazing live Bellagio 30/60 game, Hero limps UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Three more limpers to a smart, thinking LAG who limps otb. The SB completes and the BB checks.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Checked around.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Checked to the Button who bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero check/raises, folded to Button who 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, bet, call.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

If this is the right way to play the hand, I've really got to get back out to Bellagio. I could use a vactation, besides.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the right way to play the hand, I've really got to get back out to Bellagio. I could use a vactation, besides.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

Cap turn.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

So you put him on a lower flush draw? That he's 3-betting on the turn with a double paired board?

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

What?

edit: No, really... What?

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you put him on a lower flush draw? That he's 3-betting on the turn with a double paired board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect Jason's thinking was more along the lines

i) He never checks this flop with a J or 4
ii) Therefore he is just bluffing because the pot seems his to steal
iii) Therefore I will resteal it. If he gets suspicious and calls down with Ace or King high, I have lots of outs.
iv) Oh he 3 bet me. Ah, he knows that I know he doesn't have a J or 4. So he knows I could be doing this lite. Further, he must suspect I would have bet flop or turn with a Jack or 4, so he must highly suspect I am bluffing, and is rebluffing.
v) I have lots of outs if I am behind (as I know he doesnt have a full house). Therefore I call.
vi) Well, he didn't get rid of me on the turn. Presuming my read is correct that he doesn't have a full house, what would he bet the river with? He wouldn't do it with Ace high as he would expect all worse hands to fold, and better ones to call. I can't see him plating 55-TT this way, as he would have bet the flop with them, and if for some reason he didn't he would likely have just called down my c/r since he has a hand that beats a bluff.
vii) So really he either has a King, a luckily river 5, or I am good.
viii) Given all the possibilities, and the size of the pot, I am good here enough for calling to be + EV.
iv) Therefore, I call.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

With you playing like that, I can see why the game was good.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]

vii) So really he either has a King, a luckily river 5, or I am good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does he fold King high often enough to check-raise river?

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

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With you playing like that, I can see why the game was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

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With you playing like that, I can see why the game was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Comments like this are completely unnecessary. Dean. obviously put a lot of thought into the hand. I suggest trying to do that too as you might find it interesting. Finally, I was NOT Hero in this hand.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
With you playing like that, I can see why the game was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With him playing like that, I can see why the game was good.

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Comments like this are completely unnecessary. Dean. obviously put a lot of thought into the hand. I suggest trying to do that too. Finally, I was NOT Hero in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP

Come on.. It seems to me that most of the thinking done here was of the "wishful" kind.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

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With you playing like that, I can see why the game was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry's back! and still blunt!

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you put him on a lower flush draw? That he's 3-betting on the turn with a double paired board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect Jason's thinking was more along the lines

i) He never checks this flop with a J or 4
ii) Therefore he is just bluffing because the pot seems his to steal
iii) Therefore I will resteal it. If he gets suspicious and calls down with Ace or King high, I have lots of outs.
iv) Oh he 3 bet me. Ah, he knows that I know he doesn't have a J or 4. So he knows I could be doing this lite. Further, he must suspect I would have bet flop or turn with a Jack or 4, so he must highly suspect I am bluffing, and is rebluffing.
v) I have lots of outs if I am behind (as I know he doesnt have a full house). Therefore I call.
vi) Well, he didn't get rid of me on the turn. Presuming my read is correct that he doesn't have a full house, what would he bet the river with? He wouldn't do it with Ace high as he would expect all worse hands to fold, and better ones to call. I can't see him plating 55-TT this way, as he would have bet the flop with them, and if for some reason he didn't he would likely have just called down my c/r since he has a hand that beats a bluff.
vii) So really he either has a King, a luckily river 5, or I am good.
viii) Given all the possibilities, and the size of the pot, I am good here enough for calling to be + EV.
iv) Therefore, I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This analysis rests on the notion that the thinking LAG (who didn't raise PF) who didn't take a stab at a small pot in position on the flop is now willing to bluff three times on the big bet streets.

It seems to me that villain is value betting the river (or at least bluffing with the best hand) so much of the time that calling here can't be correct.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

yes, I agree. Deal me in!

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

jason,

This is such a ridiculous parlay that it is 100% a horrible way to play the hand. I understand Dean.'s justification. It's just not happening enough. Whoever hero was, tried to think a bit too much into this one.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

so you were the villain???

What did villain have quad 4's ? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] oops maybe Im used to party 2/4 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
so you were the villain???

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
What did villain have quad 4's ? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] oops maybe Im used to party 2/4 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you were the villain???

[/ QUOTE ]

No.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
What did villain have quad 4's ? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] oops maybe Im used to party 2/4 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I am used to 2/4, ok I have played a little 5/10 [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

ehm, well anyway, what did he have ?

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

I don't understand why people are busting on this play so much, yeah on first glance it looks stupid but I am fairly sure this is the correct way to play this hand up to the river.

the only question I have is what does the LAG think of Hero's play? Does he see him as a straight forward TAG? In that case you would have much better success with a checkraise on the river.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
In an amazing live Bellagio 30/60 game, Hero limps UTG with Q T. Three more limpers to a smart, thinking LAG who limps otb. The SB completes and the BB checks.

Flop: J 4 4.
Checked around.

Turn: J
Checked to the Button who bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero check/raises, folded to Button who 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: 5
Check, bet, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, this is not good.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...rainbow123.gif

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LOL

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...rainbow123.gif

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LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Have I mentioned F U lately?

PS - Yes this means you won a hug next time you are in Vegas.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

The responses to this thread were pretty much what I expected them to be. I'm quite frustrated by that.

The Button had 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and UTG's Q-high took the pot. I think both players played this hand pretty thoughtfully. Dean pretty much nailed what I think that UTG must have been thinking during the hand; I think he played the hand brilliantly. The only problem I have is that the Button, while clearly reading UTG's hand for what it was, spewed chips into what was a tiny pot and then put himself into a spot on the river where he was getting sufficient odds to try bluffing one more time. So on the turn the pot was 3.5 BB and including the 3 BB that UTG put into the pot on the turn he spent 4 BB trying to win those 6.5 BB. That's quite an expensive proposition, especially since UTG's check/raise says either "I slowplayed a monster" or "I know you're full of [censored]." Button should have given up to the turn check/raise but his line of thought on UTG's hand was certainly clairivoyant. He made the right read but acting on it just wasn't worth it. Button was trying too hard to win this pot. We shouldn't forget our goal is to win money, not pots. Sometimes that means just letting go in spots like this even if we're dead certain that our opponent has nothing too.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

When you say it's a "great" game, i tend to think loose-passive. And against a large field of loose passives, i really do hate bluff-raising in a small pot.


It's clear that button doesnt have a jack or a four, but i dont think you can automatically exclude something like a pair of 5's or ace high from 3betting this. If he thinks you're FOS enough to 3bet as a bluff (which is to say, he thinks you have something you may have to fold), he would also think that you're drawing live against his ace high - in which case the 3bet would be for value. By labelling him LAG you sort of imply that he's going to bet any small hole pair on the flop when checked to, but that may not always be the case.


Small pot ... large field ... out of position ... and we dont even know if we're ahead the bettor for certain. While it is higher stakes than ive ever played by quite a bit, a "good" 30/60 live game probably plays quite a bit like my usual online game.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

jason,

What if button just calls cr on turn? Hero would then bet riv? Would a raise here work?

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
jason,

What if button just calls cr on turn? Hero would then bet riv? Would a raise here work?

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant, imo.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
The responses to this thread were pretty much what I expected them to be. I'm quite frustrated by that.

The Button had 6 9 and UTG's Q-high took the pot. I think both players played this hand pretty thoughtfully. Dean pretty much nailed what I think that UTG must have been thinking during the hand; I think he played the hand brilliantly. The only problem I have is that the Button, while clearly reading UTG's hand for what it was, spewed chips into what was a tiny pot and then put himself into a spot on the river where he was getting sufficient odds to try bluffing one more time. So on the turn the pot was 3.5 BB and including the 3 BB that UTG put into the pot on the turn he spent 4 BB trying to win those 6.5 BB. That's quite an expensive proposition, especially since UTG's check/raise says either "I slowplayed a monster" or "I know you're full of [censored]." Button should have given up to the turn check/raise but his line of thought on UTG's hand was certainly clairivoyant. He made the right read but acting on it just wasn't worth it. Button was trying too hard to win this pot. We shouldn't forget our goal is to win money, not pots. Sometimes that means just letting go in spots like this even if we're dead certain that our opponent has nothing too.


[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of result, hero loses big money in the long run by playing this way.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

OMG!!! How can you call that river? More importantly how can you call that turn???

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMG!!! How can you call that river? More importantly how can you call that turn???

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This is how.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

So Jason had to twist some details to make this hand postable, but it hardly matters. I was the button and I played this hand poorly. I should have bet the flop and since I didn't I should have just not tried to make a play for such a small pot. But when the UTG player checkraised the turn I think I played the hand great. I did not bet the river because the river was a heart, I checked behind and he won with a flush. I told him I had Ace high. His turn checkraise is abysmal.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

if the river was not a heart u wouldve won this pot.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

I know!! I cried a little.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
In an amazing live Bellagio 30/60 game, Hero limps UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Three more limpers to a smart, thinking LAG who limps otb. The SB completes and the BB checks.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Checked around.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Checked to the Button who bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero check/raises, folded to Button who 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, bet, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it would do justice if I posted the real results of the hand had river not been a heart. I mean, just saying.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG!!! How can you call that river? More importantly how can you call that turn???

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

I think utg played the hand very well in the first example of the hand. To all the people who think this hand was played horrible: You need to think more about poker.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

A turn checkraise is incredibly obvious as the hand he holds against a thinking player. He is always going to get tested with this action and a better hand will never fold. He should have just went ahead and bet out on the turn.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

It is much more obvious that the button has nothing then the utg player. The utg player could have A high which would be way good in this situation. The chance that utg has the jack is higher then the button having one, given the way it played out.

Betting out might work, but there is a lot of players in the pot. When all the players between utg and button check again and then both blinds fold the relative strength of utg's hand has gone up greatly. None of the blinds slowplayed the boat and none of the 3! players between you and the button has a pair and probably not even ace high.

How can you say that a checkraise will allways be tested. How can he test the utg when he doesn't have anything and there is nothing he can represent with his betting pattern. Your opponent has to be weak/tight and non thinking for it to be correct to keep playing in that spot.

Re: 30/60 QTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
So on the turn the pot was 3.5 BB and including the 3 BB that UTG put into the pot on the turn he spent 4 BB trying to win those 6.5 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a small problem with this part of the post because it is mathematically misleading. It ignores something I think of as "recovered equity". While I'm sure you understand what's going on here, I sometimes see this mistake for real on these forums in preflop reasoning.

When contemplating the turn 3-bet, the button knows he has the option of checking the river if it is -EV. Therefore he must feel any river bet is +EV. So he is not spending 4 BB to win 3.5, he is spending 3. Actually he is spending even less than 3 on the turn, since he is recovering some of the equity on the river.