Black market schools
 

linky

A shocking report: Competition = higher quality service.

Re: Black market schools
 

Hey, man... I got some of the smoothest physics you'll ever learn right here, man. You're not a cop are you?

Re: Black market schools
 

Down with socialism

Re: Black market schools
 

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Down with socialism

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I'll drink to that.

Re: Black market schools
 

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Down with socialism

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I'll drink to that.

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Me cheerlead this too!

Re: Black market schools
 

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Down with socialism unless it's called something else, then it's ok

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To more accurately represent the view of the general public.

Re: Black market schools
 

First off, its a stretch to say that these schools are black market. You don't exactly see the cops busting down doors and hauling kids to public schools. Second, the evidence that private schools are better is mixed:

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A study based on a survey of parent satisfaction published earlier this year by researchers at Columbia University found that relying on private markets can undermine educational equity and universal access. Furthermore, it argues, private schools strive for superior quality only where they compete with government schools; otherwise they offer "lower-quality, second-chance" educations to children without any other option. "There is no reason to assume that private markets will necessarily improve the quality of education," the study concludes.

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So the sum total of that article is the anedcotal evidence with a huge selection bias says private schools are better, but a more objective analysis says public schools are a reasonable alternative.

Re: Black market schools
 

God you will try to twist anything iron.

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otherwise they offer "lower-quality, second-chance" educations to children without any other option

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Some education > than no education, some opportunity to go to school > no opportunity to go to school.


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but a more objective analysis says public schools are a reasonable alternative.

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Ummm no, the part that you quoted says


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Furthermore, it argues, private schools strive for superior quality only where they compete with government schools

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Re: Black market schools
 

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First off, its a stretch to say that these schools are black market.

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If I start a school voluntarily with my own money, teachers work for me voluntarily, and children and their parents choose to involve themselves voluntarily also.. and this school, the teachers AND the children/parents do not conform to state laws/regulation/permits/diplomas/standards/whatever, then it's a clear case of a black market.


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You don't exactly see the cops busting down doors and hauling kids to public schools.

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O RLY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFxZWdw5BCs


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Second, the evidence that private schools are better is mixed:

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A study based on a survey of parent satisfaction published earlier this year by researchers at Columbia University found that relying on private markets can undermine educational equity and universal access. Furthermore, it argues, private schools strive for superior quality only where they compete with government schools; otherwise they offer "lower-quality, second-chance" educations to children without any other option. "There is no reason to assume that private markets will necessarily improve the quality of education," the study concludes.

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So the sum total of that article is the anedcotal evidence with a huge selection bias says private schools are better, but a more objective analysis says public schools are a reasonable alternative.

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Is it voluntary?

Re: Black market schools
 

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First off, its a stretch to say that these schools are black market. You don't exactly see the cops busting down doors and hauling kids to public schools. Second, the evidence that private schools are better is mixed:

[ QUOTE ]
A study based on a survey of parent satisfaction published earlier this year by researchers at Columbia University found that relying on private markets can undermine educational equity and universal access. Furthermore, it argues, private schools strive for superior quality only where they compete with government schools; otherwise they offer "lower-quality, second-chance" educations to children without any other option. "There is no reason to assume that private markets will necessarily improve the quality of education," the study concludes.

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So the sum total of that article is the anedcotal evidence with a huge selection bias says private schools are better, but a more objective analysis says public schools are a reasonable alternative.

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The only valid point you make is that the few private schools that cater to kids kicked out of the public school system for behavior issues offer less educational value than public schools. Weird, bunch of delinquents dont learn too well. I see nothing that says that private schools that compete for the same market as other private schools offer less than a stellar education.

DUCY this would work if every school was private?

Re: Black market schools
 

For obvious reasons, it's higly likely that private schools are more efficient than public schools.
However, it is not a good argument against the existence of public schools, unless you don't understand the reason for public education.

Re: Black market schools
 

Wow, there are people that still belive that public schools are efficient?
If so they probably got their education at public schools [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Black market schools
 

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For obvious reasons, it's higly likely that private schools are more efficient than public schools.
However, it is not a good argument against the existence of public schools, unless you don't understand the reason for public education.

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Which is?

Re: Black market schools
 

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For obvious reasons, it's higly likely that private schools are more efficient than public schools.
However, it is not a good argument against the existence of public schools, unless you don't understand the reason for public education.

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Which is?

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THE REASON. ldo

You must not understand it.

Re: Black market schools
 

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For obvious reasons, it's higly likely that private schools are more efficient than public schools.
However, it is not a good argument against the existence of public schools, unless you don't understand the reason for public education.

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Which is?

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Well, there are two reasons:

1. Ensure that every child gets an education

2. Give children something to do besides work in a sweatshop.

Re: Black market schools
 

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For obvious reasons, it's higly likely that private schools are more efficient than public schools.
However, it is not a good argument against the existence of public schools, unless you don't understand the reason for public education.

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Which is?

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Well, there are two reasons:

1. Ensure that every child gets an education

2. Give children something to do besides work in a sweatshop.

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I tend to believe that anyone should be free to choose if they prefer to get such an education or not. I for one would find it hard to be able to judge what is good for a child or not, at least I don't think I could judge that better than the child itself or its parents.

Humor me and assume for a second that there was no state provided education. I'm pretty sure that the following would happen:
1) There would be some pretty cheap schools and it would be affordable for everyone to attend school. Not everyone would get to attend a great school but that's not the idea anyways
2) There would be quite a bit more self study and some system of recruitment into the workforce based on self study
3) There would be way more scholarships and recruiting of talent meaning that intelligent but poor kids would actually be better off
4) Companies would start their own school programms and waive the fees if you work for them later or something of that kind

p.s.: "Giving someone something to do" is never a good idea especially not if combined with forcing them to do it. Do you expect everyone who is forced into school behaves nicely, will get along with everyone else and will not reduce the overall experience of the education for the others?

Re: Black market schools
 

For anyone interested in the bad things of public education, ideas on what kind of education is actually helpful, and the history of education over the centuries and why it got instituted and what function it ACTUALLY has.

John Taylor Gatto
* The Guerrilla Curriculum (1)
* Compiled Thoughts On Schooling (1)
* Compiled Thoughts On Schooling (2)
http://www.altruists.org/downloads/b...ers/education/
(podcasts)


John Taylor Gatto (born John Gatto) is an American retired school teacher of 29 years 8 months and author of several books on education. He is an activist critical of compulsory schooling and the hegemonic nature of discourse on education and the education professions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto

He climaxed his teaching career as New York State Teacher of the Year after being named New York City Teacher of the Year on three occasions. He quit teaching on the OP ED page of the Wall Street Journal in 1991 while still New York State Teacher of the Year, claiming that he was no longer willing to hurt children. Later that year he was the subject of a show at Carnegie Hall called "An Evening With John Taylor Gatto," which launched a career of public speaking in the area of school reform, which has taken Gatto over a million and a half miles in all fifty states and seven foreign countries. In 1992, he was named Secretary of Education in the Libertarian Party Shadow Cabinet, and he has been included in Who's Who in America from 1996 on. In 1997, he was given the Alexis de Tocqueville Award for his contributions to the cause of liberty, and was named to the Board of Advisors of the National TV-Turnoff Week.

His books include: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (1992); The Exhausted School (1993); A Different Kind of Teacher (2000); and The Underground History Of American Education (2001)

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/aboutus/john.htm

Re: Black market schools
 

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For obvious reasons, it's higly likely that private schools are more efficient than public schools.
However, it is not a good argument against the existence of public schools, unless you don't understand the reason for public education.

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Which is?

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Well, there are two reasons:

1. Ensure that every child gets an education

2. Give children something to do besides work in a sweatshop.

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Wow, double fallacy!

Re: Black market schools
 

the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education. The system often fails but in my opinion it is better thant no trying.
No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

Re: Black market schools
 

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the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education.

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So help me understand. You are saying that by taking away someone's freedom and by physically forcing them to do things you are actually giving them more opportunities?

Re: Black market schools
 

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Well, there are two reasons:

1. Ensure that every child gets an education

2. Give children something to do besides work in a sweatshop.

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Do you really think all children need to learn the things that are taught in public schools (or even in most private schools)? Whether or not something like public schooling exists, I think the best thing that can be done for education is to decentralize it enough so that not every single person needs to learn the same goddamn stuff. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone wants or needs to learn the same things, so its silly to have a system where bascially all children are brought up learning the same subjects.

Re: Black market schools
 

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So help me understand. You are saying that by taking away someone's freedom and by physically forcing them to do things you are actually giving them more opportunities?

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Obviously.

Re: Black market schools
 

Sign me up!

Ooh,wait, can I tour your particle accelerator lab first?

Re: Black market schools
 

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Sign me up!

Ooh,wait, can I tour your particle accelerator lab first?

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http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ng-Machine.jpg

Re: Black market schools
 

"the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education."

No, the main purpose of public education has always been training obedient worker / soldier drones. Where do you think it came from? Prussia, home of the worker / solder drones! This was, in my opinion, the reason why Prussia established dominance in Europe, first over France, then beyond! Luckily we no longer require worker / solder drones and can scrap this drone producing system.

Re: Black market schools
 

Only if you can afford it.
Or else you can go to or poor people's school where you'll learn to polish shoes. if you're good enough, you 'll later get a scholarship to learn to read and write.

Re: Black market schools
 

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1. Ensure that every child gets an indoctrination

2. Save children from work with forced labor.

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Re: Black market schools
 

Private and magnet schools in the US do not show statistically significant educational results vs public schools for students in the same socio-economic status.

Re: Black market schools
 

In a rare show of support from NTB...

I think most of the ACists are SPOT ON WRT education.

Private/voluntary>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>Public(state)/mandatory

Re: Black market schools
 

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In a rare show of support from NTB...

I think most of the ACists are SPOT ON WRT education.

Private/voluntary>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>Public(state)/mandatory

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Black market schools
 

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In a rare show of support from NTB...

I think most of the ACists are SPOT ON WRT education.

Private/voluntary>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>Public(state)/mandatory

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There is no evidence to support that conclusion, and plenty of counter examples. Virtually the only broad success of (semi) privatization is magnet schools in very poor areas, and those successes correlate with motivation and parental involvement.

Re: Black market schools
 

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the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education. The system often fails but in my opinion it is better thant no trying.
No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

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Why do you assume that there would be no cheap schools?
It's not like public schools are a free lunch.

Re: Black market schools
 

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Well, there are two reasons:

1. Ensure that every child gets an education

2. Give children something to do besides work in a sweatshop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think all children need to learn the things that are taught in public schools (or even in most private schools)? Whether or not something like public schooling exists, I think the best thing that can be done for education is to decentralize it enough so that not every single person needs to learn the same goddamn stuff. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone wants or needs to learn the same things, so its silly to have a system where bascially all children are brought up learning the same subjects.

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What a crazy claim. Everyone learns the same, are you out of your mind?
Come on there's a rich diversity in public schools. Some teach evolution and some teach creationism.

Re: Black market schools
 

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the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education. The system often fails but in my opinion it is better thant no trying.
No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

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Why do you assume that there would be no cheap schools?
It's not like public schools are a free lunch.

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Because of the free rider problem, as is often the case. Property taxes that pay for most public education are payed by users and non-users alike (which is appropriate because there are signficant social benefits from broad based educational opportunities). Give the non-users a choice to voluntarily contribute or not, and everyone that opts not to increases the burden on users.

Re: Black market schools
 

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the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education. The system often fails but in my opinion it is better thant no trying.
No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

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Yes, there's the first fallacy. The fallacy of "disagree with my tactics means you disagree with my objective" (also known as "why do you hate poor people? or "why do you support the terrorists?" or "why do you hate children?"). There are ways other than centralized, coercively funded government schools that can provide poor children with opportunities.

Re: Black market schools
 

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the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education. The system often fails but in my opinion it is better thant no trying.
No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that there would be no cheap schools?
It's not like public schools are a free lunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the free rider problem, as is often the case. Property taxes that pay for most public education are payed by users and non-users alike (which is appropriate because there are signficant social benefits from broad based educational opportunities). Give the non-users a choice to voluntarily contribute or not, and everyone that opts not to increases the burden on users.

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That would be the exact opposite of a "free rider problem". The public schooling system as we know it is *designed* with free riders *in mind*.

Black is white!

Re: Black market schools
 

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There are ways other than centralized, coercively funded government schools that can provide poor children with opportunities.

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QFMFT





OK prepare for universe asplode time I've now agreed with pvn, Nielso, and Borodog [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Black market schools
 

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the main purpose of public education is to give every child the opportunity to get an education. The system often fails but in my opinion it is better thant no trying.
No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there's the first fallacy. The fallacy of "disagree with my tactics means you disagree with my objective" (also known as "why do you hate poor people? or "why do you support the terrorists?" or "why do you hate children?"). There are ways other than centralized, coercively funded government schools that can provide poor children with opportunities.

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LOL!!!!
If there are no publics schools, every rich child is gauranteed a golden education that poor children cannot have.
Public school cannot prevent that from happenning, but it can at least give a little hope.
If they are other way to provide poor children with opporunities and not come back to a true feudal society in two generations in an ACworld, please name them, I need a laugh.

Re: Black market schools
 

There's an enormous social welfare organization that continually increases the quantity, quality, and affordability of goods and services to the consuming masses, most especially the poor. It's called the free market. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Re: Black market schools
 

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No public school-> poor children have no opportunity to sucess in life -> a free society that is not so free.

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Public education is not about poor children. If it was, we'd needs-test for it and only provide it to those at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. Providing 100% free education to all kids, even in families that otherwise could pay for it themselves, is about buying votes and controlling the information given to as many children as possible.